BBO Discussion Forums: Can we bid this slam? - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Can we bid this slam? Great fit in clubs

#21 User is offline   NickRW 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,918
  • Joined: 2008-April-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sussex, England

Posted 2018-January-23, 07:09

Playing canapé it might start 1S-2H; 2NT-3C; 4C and then you have a chance
"Pass is your friend" - my brother in law - who likes to bid a lot.
0

#22 User is offline   msjennifer 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 617
  • Joined: 2013-August-03
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Variable private
  • Interests:Cricket,Photography,Paediatrics and Community Medicine.

Posted 2018-January-23, 08:41

View PostFelicityR, on 2018-January-23, 01:31, said:

Really!? From the South side of the table it's a brilliant slam, and from the North side it's just short of brilliant. To the poster: I'm apologise for being so direct but your comment is wrong.

And that AQxx may well be Axxx and the Diamonds KQx when you stand no chance in 6 C on a spade lead!All in all its a suspicious slam not worth taking a chance in a pairs match points event and only worth at IMP if you are badly down and somehow want to make up.
0

#23 User is online   hrothgar 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 13,230
  • Joined: 2003-February-13
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Natick, MA
  • Interests:Travel
    Cooking
    Brewing
    Hiking

Posted 2018-January-23, 08:51

View Postsfi, on 2018-January-22, 16:34, said:

Polish Club would start 1C - 2C (5+, FG); 3C (normally 4+ support) and then it seems we should have a shot. I think the key to getting to a slam is for North to work out there is a 10-card club fit before the partnership passes 3NT. Inverted minors would achieve the same thing, but if your 2C denies a major you are much worse off on this particular hand.


Polish Club is a MAFIA based system.

Auction would start 1 - 1
Alderaan delenda est
0

#24 User is offline   nekthen 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 240
  • Joined: 2008-September-21

Posted 2018-January-23, 09:15

On a lead 3N is as shaky as 6. If clubs don't break 2-1 you are doomed.
my Acol bidding should go

1N 2
2 3 indicating 4 and 5+ and GF
4 (you cannot deny your club support)
4 RKCB
4 1/5
4[N] Q?
5 no

At this point you do not know about South's Red Kings and you do not know which ace he has. So really cannot bid 6

However, maybe after 3 3 of a suit should indicate 4 clubs and lowest ace

Now South can bid 3 North can see that the stiff diamond makes NT dangerous so temporizes with 4. Now 4 indicates K It seems better to show this K opposite partners 4 card suit

Now maybe North knows enough to bid 6
0

#25 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,380
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2018-January-23, 09:24

IMO, unless you play a system to show a 6-card club suit bidding the slam is impossible - it is the 6-4 trump fit that makes this slam worthwhile. Even then, getting to slam is iffy as in the systems of which I am familiar it is a 2C bid that would show 6 and now bidding room is squeezed.
If something cannot go on forever, it will stop. - Herb Stein
0

#26 User is offline   cvcherry 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 14
  • Joined: 2010-October-25

Posted 2018-January-23, 09:46

I will start at 2(invert minor) or 3(splinter) in North. However it's still hard to get slam cuz of K.
0

#27 User is online   0deary 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 38
  • Joined: 2017-December-22
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2018-January-23, 10:52

Forgive me can I offer a little more:-(prompted by Cyber above)

(PS: ….although holding KH improves 3N a lot!....ooops…) and, more importantly-

PPS. In Acol WNT full Xfers maybe 1N (12-14 inc 5M)-2S (clubs- usually minor slam try, have 2 first and 1 second round controls and a decent suit)- 3C (transferred)-3D (first or second round control below RKCB)- 3H (ditto)-3N (deny S control at all- content if you subside in 3N)- 4C (I have the spade control and I like my clubs opposite your long clubs north)- 4H (I have first round control H now)- 4N (5 Ace RKCB)- 5C (3 “Aces”)- 6C look good now
0

#28 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 107
  • Joined: 2014-February-18

Posted 2018-January-23, 10:55

View PostWinstonm, on 2018-January-23, 09:24, said:

IMO, unless you play a system to show a 6-card club suit bidding the slam is impossible - it is the 6-4 trump fit that makes this slam worthwhile.


I don't think the system needs to explicitly show a 6 card suit. Just a sequence of 2/1 with short club is enough to expose that North must have at least 5 cards, of course he knows he has 6 and will make reassuring noises if asked about the Queen. The real question is what should South do once he learns that North has extra strength, has a control in hearts, has an odd number of Key-cards, is lacking the K of spades and has at most 2 cards in diamonds. Pass and play game, or go for the slam? My partner would go for it with even less, but that's the way he is :D

1 - 2
2 - 3
4 - 4
4 - 5
?
0

#29 User is offline   sfi 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,217
  • Joined: 2009-May-18
  • Location:Oz

Posted 2018-January-23, 14:12

View Posthrothgar, on 2018-January-23, 08:51, said:

Polish Club is a MAFIA based system.

Auction would start 1 - 1


Not according to either the WJ2000 or WJ2005 books. In fact, they both have the example of a hand with a weak club suit and a four-card major, such as QJxx KJ KQ Jxxxx, where you can lie and bid 1S instead.

There are other times where you bid the major first (such as opener with a 4-card major and longer clubs and 15+), but this isn't one of them. And of course, there may be other versions where responder does show the major first.
1

#30 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,380
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2018-January-23, 16:04

View Postpescetom, on 2018-January-23, 10:55, said:

I don't think the system needs to explicitly show a 6 card suit. Just a sequence of 2/1 with short club is enough to expose that North must have at least 5 cards, of course he knows he has 6 and will make reassuring noises if asked about the Queen. The real question is what should South do once he learns that North has extra strength, has a control in hearts, has an odd number of Key-cards, is lacking the K of spades and has at most 2 cards in diamonds. Pass and play game, or go for the slam? My partner would go for it with even less, but that's the way he is :D

1 - 2
2 - 3
4 - 4
4 - 5
?


Without a 6-4 fit, the clubs need to break and the slam is not a good one.
If something cannot go on forever, it will stop. - Herb Stein
0

#31 User is online   0deary 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 38
  • Joined: 2017-December-22
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2018-January-23, 19:12

PPPS:

Can you use (WNT full xfers and stayman) 1NT-2C(stayman)-2S-3C as North stressing H values and 1NT-2S(Xfer)-3C-3H(nat) as North stressing C values?

South likes Kx H and the four clubs but hates North declaring in clubs using stayman, but much prefers protecting the red kings on lead....
0

#32 User is offline   cleveritis 

  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 6
  • Joined: 2017-December-15

Posted 2018-January-24, 19:50

Playing weak NT, it isn't easy at all. 1N 2c 2S - 3C (so opp clubs and hearts Kx of hearts is huge but 9/12 point in other suits - so 3N. The 6-4 should pass, but if he bids 4c it is easy peasy now.

Playing strong, 1C - 2C (can have 4cm if game forcing) - 2N (bal, 4 clubs) - 3H (5/4 or 6/4 unbalanced) - 3S (concentration) - 4C (f), 4C (waiting), 4H (mandatory), 6c

If you have to bid 1h on these cards, then 1c - 1H - 1NT - some bid that shows 6-4 forcing - 3S concentration and same result.

So biddable - but the 6-4 needs to know about 4c, then pretty easy.
0

#33 User is offline   helene_t 

  • The Abbess
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 15,354
  • Joined: 2004-April-22
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Hamilton, New Zealand

Posted 2018-January-24, 21:03

I just realized that the legitimate chances are a bit better than 57%.

(Partial) elimination of hearts ending in dummy, then play 9. If E plays low, play low also, W will win and may be endplayed. This works whenever W holds at least one of QJ along with his assumed A and his hearts can be eliminated. A heart lead is quite likely (it will often look like a safe lead based on the auction, and on a spade or diamond lead we are home anyway, and a trump lead is unlikely if W has Q6), and a heart lead may increase the likelihood that we can play four rounds of hearts before playing diamonds.

Also, the probability that W has K together with A is reduced by the fact that W didn't bid.
You might speculate on the psychopathology of some posters but hating them seems excessive --- Nige1
0

#34 User is offline   cherdano 

  • 5555
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,463
  • Joined: 2003-September-04
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2018-January-24, 22:22

Helene this elimination doesn't work. You are risking overtures since you would have to play at least the 3rd round if hearts before pulling trumps. And RHO would play low from Axx in diamonds. In fact when it looks like you are going for an display he may also play low from AJx or AQx.

On the other hand you do have some chances if trumps break 3-0 and they don't lead a diamond.
Obviously we have a recall bias in favour of the assholes. -helene_t
1

#35 User is offline   msjennifer 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 617
  • Joined: 2013-August-03
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Variable private
  • Interests:Cricket,Photography,Paediatrics and Community Medicine.

Posted 2018-January-25, 00:34

Just come to think of it!
I handed this hand to two of some players who play the so called “Ladder system “ .This is what and how they bid.
1C( 12/14 any)—2C ( GF ,Club suit 5 plus)
2NT(No five card Suit)-3H( Natural)
3S ( Natural). - 4C(6 plus strong suit,no desire to play NT Singleton D)
4S(Cue bid Ace and club fit)——6C
How amused was I!Certainly I would think umpteen times before adventuring in such a System.
0

#36 User is offline   helene_t 

  • The Abbess
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 15,354
  • Joined: 2004-April-22
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Hamilton, New Zealand

Posted 2018-January-25, 14:48

View Postcherdano, on 2018-January-24, 22:22, said:

Helene this elimination doesn't work. You are risking overtures since you would have to play at least the 3rd round if hearts before pulling trumps.

On a heart lead I play the Jack from dummy. If it holds, it goes
- heart lead for the jack
- two rounds of trump
- heart to king
- back to dummy with a trump. Still one trump left in the hand
- heart ace. If the queen drops I can take the last heart also
So the elimination seems to work if the heart lead is from Qxx or xxx. Also from xxxx if RHO makes the mistake not to cover.
I suppose I am missing something, usually I am wrong when I disagree with you :)

Quote

And RHO would play low from Axx in diamonds. In fact when it looks like you are going for an display he may also play low from AJx or AQx.

Yeah I need RHO to hurdle. Against most of the pairs at the local club I would be confident that he doesn't have the ace if he ducks a tempo. But OK then maybe I should have posted it in "uniteresting bridge hands".

Quote

On the other hand you do have some chances if trumps break 3-0 and they don't lead a diamond.

Not that great chances, I thought. I could try to pick K stiff but I am not sure if I would even try that as matchpoints as I could be two down on a bad day. Or are you thinking of faking the heart elimination to discourage RHO from going up with A? Edit: Oh yes, on a spade lead from Kxx it works also.
You might speculate on the psychopathology of some posters but hating them seems excessive --- Nige1
0

#37 User is offline   Dinarius 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 105
  • Joined: 2015-February-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ireland

Posted 2018-January-25, 15:57

If you reduce North’s losers to five, because of the (assumed) 10 card fit - only a 3/0 Club break giving a loser- then 5 losers opposite 7 should alert North to making a move over 3NT.

The thing is, Pairs, which is what I mostly play, does not reward bad games & slams. So, most will rest in 3NT.

D.
0

#38 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,380
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2018-January-25, 17:07

View Postpescetom, on 2018-January-23, 10:55, said:

I don't think the system needs to explicitly show a 6 card suit. Just a sequence of 2/1 with short club is enough to expose that North must have at least 5 cards, of course he knows he has 6 and will make reassuring noises if asked about the Queen. The real question is what should South do once he learns that North has extra strength, has a control in hearts, has an odd number of Key-cards, is lacking the K of spades and has at most 2 cards in diamonds. Pass and play game, or go for the slam? My partner would go for it with even less, but that's the way he is :D

1 - 2
2 - 3
4 - 4
4 - 5
?


You suppress the 4-card spade suit in order to raise clubs on xxxx? Don't think so. :P
If something cannot go on forever, it will stop. - Herb Stein
0

#39 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,701
  • Joined: 2009-July-13
  • Location:England

Posted 2018-January-25, 17:21

View PostWinstonm, on 2018-January-25, 17:07, said:

You suppress the 4-card spade suit in order to raise clubs on xxxx? Don't think so. :P


Err the raise is on the 6 card suit, but yes we would indeed do exactly this if N opened 1 and we held the S hand, but then we play a 4+ card club.
0

#40 User is offline   Winstonm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,380
  • Joined: 2005-January-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Tulsa, Oklahoma
  • Interests:Art, music

Posted 2018-January-25, 22:35

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-January-25, 17:21, said:

Err the raise is on the 6 card suit, but yes we would indeed do exactly this if N opened 1 and we held the S hand, but then we play a 4+ card club.


OK
If something cannot go on forever, it will stop. - Herb Stein
0

Share this topic:


  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users