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Can we bid this slam? Great fit in clubs

#1 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 14:49



Playing 15-17 5542 (but would open 1 with a balanced hand with four diamonds), Walsh (but apparently this 1 rebid doesn't promize an unbalanced hand), responder's 3 at second turn is apparently forcing (Pavlicek style or some such, not really worked out in details). 4 is available as minorwood from either side. North could also start with a splinter or an inverted raise although that in principle denies a four-card major.

Slam is not bad. Clubs 2-1 and either K or A in the right place would give you some 57% and depending on opps' skills and clues from the bidding you may have additional chances, such as for example West leading A (it was matchpoints after all).

Should either partner have done something?

Would it be easier if we were playing your favorite system?
You might speculate on the psychopathology of some posters but hating them seems excessive --- Nige1
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#2 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 15:47

I would not get there.
Obviously we have a recall bias in favour of the assholes. -helene_t
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#3 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 15:55

View Postcherdano, on 2018-January-22, 15:47, said:

I would not get there.


And happy to have not done so. :P
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#4 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 16:28

View Posthelene_t, on 2018-January-22, 14:49, said:

Playing 15-17 5542 (but would open 1 with a balanced hand with four diamonds), Walsh (but apparently this 1 rebid doesn't promize an unbalanced hand), responder's 3 at second turn is apparently forcing (Pavlicek style or some such, not really worked out in details). 4 is available as minorwood from either side. North could also start with a splinter or an inverted raise although that in principle denies a four-card major.Slam is not bad. Clubs 2-1 and either K or A in the right place would give you some 57% and depending on opps' skills and clues from the bidding you may have additional chances, such as for example West leading A (it was matchpoints after all).Should either partner have done something?Would it be easier if we were playing your favorite system?

Jasmine
With slow red-suit stops and weak support, it's hard for South to show slam-enthusiasm.

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#5 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 16:31

Slams from 12 opposite 13 hands are usually pretty difficult to bid even if cold.

I don't think I'd get there.
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#6 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 16:34

Polish Club would start 1C - 2C (5+, FG); 3C (normally 4+ support) and then it seems we should have a shot. I think the key to getting to a slam is for North to work out there is a 10-card club fit before the partnership passes 3NT. Inverted minors would achieve the same thing, but if your 2C denies a major you are much worse off on this particular hand.
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#7 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 16:48

View Postnige1, on 2018-January-22, 16:28, said:


Jasmine
With slow red-suit stops and weak support, it's hard for South to show slam-enthusiasm.


I would think that if South has shown 10-12 with just 2-4 clubs, the actual hand with its 4-card support and four controls is quite good in context, no?
You might speculate on the psychopathology of some posters but hating them seems excessive --- Nige1
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#8 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 16:56

Translating what we play to strong no trump which doesn't entirely work as we are GF if balanced:

1(4+)-2(inverted inv+, not denying 4M)
2(nat minimum)-3
3N

and now N will visualise the S hand with either AK rather than AQ or KQ or A instead of K or KQ and plough on with 4.

This is a very common theme of "we opened a 2 card club and didn't realise we had that big a fit", it's the price you pay.
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#9 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 17:54

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-January-22, 16:56, said:

Translating what we play to strong no trump which doesn't entirely work as we are GF if balanced:

1(4+)-2(inverted inv+, not denying 4M)
2(nat minimum)-3
3N

and now N will visualise the S hand with either AK rather than AQ or KQ or A instead of K or KQ and plough on with 4.

This is a very common theme of "we opened a 2 card club and didn't realise we had that big a fit", it's the price you pay.

I am amazed your North knows that South has no wasted club honours in your 10-card fit!
Obviously we have a recall bias in favour of the assholes. -helene_t
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#10 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 18:08

Using my (nullve-nullve's) system, maybe

1-2 ("NAT or 11-13/17-19/26+ BAL"; "GF, 5+ C, unBAL")
2-2 (relay; "13-15")
2-2N (relay; "4+ H or 1-suited")
3-3 (relay; "2425 or 4H6C")
3-4 (relay, willing to bypass 3N opposite 4H6C; 2416 (then 12-14 hcp))
4-5 (parity key card ask in ; odd # of key cards)
6-P (looking stupid opposite e.g. Kx-QJxx-J-KQJxxx; ---).

Or should Opener sign off in 3N over 3?
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#11 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 18:13

View Postcherdano, on 2018-January-22, 17:54, said:

I am amazed your North knows that South has no wasted club honours in your 10-card fit!


He doesn't, but AK, A is plenty, the fact that he ploughs on over 3N doesn't commit to slam. More awkward at pairs where 5 might be disastrous but fine at teams.
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#12 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 20:53

View Postrmnka447, on 2018-January-22, 16:31, said:

Slams from 12 opposite 13 hands are usually pretty difficult to bid even if cold.

I don't think I'd get there.

Only reason to be in slam is if your swinging. This isn't a great slam.
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#13 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 01:31

View Poststeve2005, on 2018-January-22, 20:53, said:

Only reason to be in slam is if your swinging. This isn't a great slam.


Really!? From the South side of the table it's a brilliant slam, and from the North side it's just short of brilliant. To the poster: I'm apologise for being so direct but your comment is wrong.
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#14 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 01:49

Seeing all 26 cards,some players can always devise a new system on the table to bid a small slam in clubs which depends on this or that to be well placed. A few super experts with complicated systems may perhaps bid this slam missing the Trump Queen,the Diamond Ace and spade King.
Practically all,I am afraid ,will rest comfortably in 3NT and a few in 5Clubs.
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#15 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 02:40



This is not easy.
- Would I bid 3NT now with South? Definitely at pairs, not sure at IMPs.
- Should North carry on, even if south does bid 3NT? Again, the form of scoring might matter, but probably not I suspect.
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#16 User is offline   xbabarx 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 03:57

I'm passing 3nt
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#17 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 05:11

View PostTramticket, on 2018-January-23, 02:40, said:



This is not easy.
- Would I bid 3NT now with South? Definitely at pairs, not sure at IMPs.
- Should North carry on, even if south does bid 3NT? Again, the form of scoring might matter, but probably not I suspect.


Starting with 1N we have to bid this in awkward fashion, and I suspect we do with Kx instead of Jx, but it's a big step with the actual hand.

The auction for us is 1N-2-2-4 slammish, 4/5+ but if only 5 clubs will be a much bigger hand.
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#18 User is offline   0deary 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 06:08

My favourite system: what a lovely question!

Iíd never reach 6C

After the 1S Iíd reflect:

E/W have ~ 14 points and quite possibly ~9 diamonds but not a peep from them at Match points- whatís going on?

Anyway Iím north and Iím going to be the decider on that particular bridge conversation so I will seek information (rather than give information hoping south can make something of that)

If I ask partner 4th suit 2D now either she will bid 2/3NT or she canít, but to save time letís just look at the 2N reply

For 2N I need my partner to have 6 clubs, a diamond on the lead and my Ace hearts= tick. To make 3N partner needs a quick trick too- exactly the Ace spades and not the KQ because the diamond ceiling will otherwise hit our heads. For running 6 clubs I can only really rely on 3 opposite so I need 2-2 or missing Q in finesse, and to rely on AS is by no means a certainty. All in all a bit too much

So at match points I think Iíll just retreat to 3C and hope that gives us a decent MPs return. Itíll be great if either of the black suit misbehave- a great MP in prospect

(If she essays 3N Iím hoping she has more D stops, more tempi to deal with the black suits, and Iíd hope for a half decent MP result for our efforts. If she canít stop D at all then slightly better chances for 5C but Iíd likely still need running Clubs- a solid 3C again looks best, certainly not a speculative 6)
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#19 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 06:19

4-6/5 canapť style bid with 2/1 can be possibly bid but how to get to 6 is not easy. if south bid 1nt second round, hand strength 12-14 balance given opposed to four card suit, then bid sequence can be 1 - 1 - 1nt - 2(gf) - 2 - 3(second suit) - ? but i still see declarer play 3nt, not 5/6

i like inverted minor raise with north hand but cannot do as hold 4 card suit. so inverted minor should be revised so hand like this can be bid good.
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#20 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 07:08

View PostLBengtsson, on 2018-January-23, 06:19, said:

i like inverted minor raise with north hand but cannot do as hold 4 card suit. so inverted minor should be revised so hand like this can be bid good.


I tend to find that this is an area where strong NT short club suffers.

Weak NT, 4 card club means handling a non GF inverted raise that may contain a 4 card major is not that difficult, hence you can bid a lot of hands more accurately. The issue is that if the club is balanced it's 15+ so GF. Almost anything better than minimum goes thru an artificial 2 over the invert.
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