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What's your bid...?

#21 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 15:09

View PostMrAce, on 2018-January-22, 14:59, said:

There is no polite way to rate the double here for me.


The sensible argument for double is that the hand is not far away from being too strong for a 1NT overcall, and you might find spades along the way. Picture partner with KJxxx in spades and nothing else - double is the best way to find game opposite that. It's not my choice, but I don't think it's such a dreadful overbid.
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#22 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 15:12

View Postsfi, on 2018-January-22, 15:09, said:

The sensible argument for double is that the hand is not far away from being too strong for a 1NT overcall, and you might find spades along the way. Picture partner with KJxxx in spades and nothing else - double is the best way to find game opposite that. It's not my choice, but I don't think it's such a dreadful overbid.


As I already said, I just can't find a polite way to discuss it so I won't. :)
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#23 User is offline   masse24 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 16:37

Pass
ďNever argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.Ē George Carlin
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#24 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 18:08

PASS

If p cannot find anything good to do in PO seat we should have little/no play for game. Defending 1d might be terrific for our side as there is no guarantee the opps cannot make 4h when opener is 4432 and responder and p are too weak to bid.
There is a very real chance diamonds might be the opps worst possible strain and they are vul. I like those odds and I am pretty sure we would have zero trouble passing if by some chance our wonderful partner balances with x in PO seat.
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#25 User is offline   xbabarx 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 21:51

View PostMrAce, on 2018-January-22, 15:01, said:

It's an awful idea fwiw.

:)
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#26 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 01:59

I feel like the hand has too much playing strength to pass. 1NT isn't great, but it's the best description available. It shuts out the opponents from finding hearts if they have them, and I'd fancy my chances in 3NT if I end up there, or indeed in anything else partner is likely to pick - except perhaps 3C, but it's MPs so he's not likely to pick that.

Against short club (lower limit of 2 clubs or less) openings, you might play 2C = NAT and 2D = both majors. But against 3+ openings it's normal to stick with cue = Michaels.

ahydra
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#27 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 02:12

View PostDinarius, on 2018-January-22, 14:57, said:

Ps.

Iíve edited the original post.

It was Game All.

D.


I will probably pass at game all.

If they are non-vulnerable I probably bid 1NT.

I don't understand other calls. We seem to be a long way short of a double. 2 is a two-suited over-call (Michaels/Ghestem) for most of the bridge world because it is a useful bid. I'm not giving it up, just because the opps play five-card majors.
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#28 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 07:42

View Postahydra, on 2018-January-23, 01:59, said:

Against short club (lower limit of 2 clubs or less) openings, you might play 2C = NAT and 2D = both majors. But against 3+ openings it's normal to stick with cue = Michaels.

I agree, see no good reason why one should give up Michaels over short club. If it is a normal short club (2 cards only when majors are 4-4) then less than 2 cards is not possible and the probability of 2 or even 3 is surprisingly low. If it is still a concern then one can always play 2C = NAT and 2D = Michaels, as you say: this is common in countries where short club and artificial club are predominant.
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#29 User is offline   maartenxq 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 08:10

View PostDinarius, on 2018-January-21, 10:06, said:





It is a case of telling the lie that will cause the least damage and misunderstanding.
?


I have penalty pass for 1 , so I pass and tell no lie whatsoever.We will see how things develop and act accordingly. If 1 nt comes back to me I wil probably bid 2 .

Maarten Baltussen
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#30 User is offline   Dinarius 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 09:42

View PostMrAce, on 2018-January-22, 14:59, said:

If you insist on bidding something that should be 1 NT. If you are looking for some action and adventure you may even try 1.
There is no polite way to rate the double here for me.
Overall "pass" stands out imo.


If a partner bids 1♠️ with that hand, Iím looking for a new partner.

D.
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#31 User is offline   Dinarius 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 10:13

View Postgszes, on 2018-January-22, 18:08, said:

PASS

If p cannot find anything good to do in PO seat we should have little/no play for game. Defending 1d might be terrific for our side as there is no guarantee the opps cannot make 4h when opener is 4432 and responder and p are too weak to bid.
There is a very real chance diamonds might be the opps worst possible strain and they are vul. I like those odds and I am pretty sure we would have zero trouble passing if by some chance our wonderful partner balances with x in PO seat.


I agree.

Pass keeps every option still open, pretty much.

If itís passed round to partner and he protects with a Dbl, I expect to make +200 (or better) which is almost invariably a top or second top at matchpoints.

There is no perfect immediate bid. I think Pass is probably best option more often than any of the others.

Matchpoints tactics do not repay marginal games or slams. The worst that can happen is both East and South have nothing, and 1♦️ is passed out. But, then a possible +100 will be more matchpoints than any minus score.

So, keeping Michaelís, Pass is number 1 bid in my opinion.

D.
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#32 User is offline   Dinarius 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 10:15

Ps. If itís passed round to partner and he is stronger than a 10/11 protective Dbl, I expect him to bid 2♦️, most times.

D.
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#33 User is offline   Caitlynne 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 15:28

There is only one call I would consider for longer than a nanosecond: Pass.

Don't you want to play in diamonds?
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#34 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 16:46

The thought of playing in diamonds is a nice prospect, but it's simply not that likely to happen. Far more likely is that next round you are faced with 1D - 1H; 2H and you still don't know whether it is your hand. I'm not saying pass isn't a sensible call, but doing so just because you may defend 1D is a poor reason to do so.
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#35 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 23:12

View Postsfi, on 2018-January-23, 16:46, said:

The thought of playing in diamonds is a nice prospect, but it's simply not that likely to happen. Far more likely is that next round you are faced with 1D - 1H; 2H and you still don't know whether it is your hand. I'm not saying pass isn't a sensible call, but doing so just because you may defend 1D is a poor reason to do so.


You are right, playing 1 was never my expectation when I chose pass. (i know you did not reply me but still..)
Over 1--1--2 we know we will never let opponents play in their 8 card suit at 2 level. Even if we are one of those who are conservative, not letting them play 2 when you have a 6-4 shape and decent values is obvious I hope.
You double 2 and can find a 4-4 fit easily if there is one. If not you can correct 3 to 3. So with the example auction you came up with, let alone feeling uncomfortable, I would just feel as if I hit the jackpot!
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#36 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2018-January-24, 00:40

View PostMrAce, on 2018-January-23, 23:12, said:

You are right, playing 1 was never my expectation when I chose pass. (i know you did not reply me but still..)

I was quite certain that was not your primary motivation. :) Others mentioned it though, and I thought it deserved to be addressed.

Quote

Over 1--1--2 we know we will never let opponents play in their 8 card suit at 2 level. Even if we are one of those who are conservative, not letting them play 2 when you have a 6-4 shape and decent values is obvious I hope.
You double 2 and can find a 4-4 fit easily if there is one. If not you can correct 3 to 3. So with the example auction you came up with, let alone feeling uncomfortable, I would just feel as if I hit the jackpot!


If your partnership is clear that 3D there is this sort of a hand, then you may indeed be better off with a pass - there are a few sequences where you may be able to get your hand type across later in the auction. My broader point (which I know you don't need to be told) is that the decision about taking action or not on the first round isn't just about that point in the auction. The real question to be asked before choosing is how we'll be placed after likely continuations, and whether passing or bidding will help us.

I still think an initial 1NT overcall will lead to a better score on average, but I generally prefer initial aggressive action rather than entering later. IMO, tramticket pretty much nailed it with the first response on the thread.
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#37 User is offline   Dinarius 

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Posted 2018-January-24, 03:22



Time for the full deal...
To save you working it out, par is 4 Doubled minus 1 by N/S, because E/W can make 3NT, though even Double Dummy 3NT isn't that easy, particularly if N has passed.

Thanks for the responses.

D.
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