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Opening 1NT at 3rd and 4th seat

#1 User is offline   xbabarx 

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Posted 2018-January-20, 23:05

1) I would like to know experts views about advantages and disadvantages of opening 1 NT at 3rd and 4th seat holding 5 card Major

2) 3rd or 4th seat, holding 14 HCP, 4432 or 4423, advantages and disadvantages of opening 1NT
Thanks
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#2 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2018-January-21, 00:21

1) It's much the same advantages and disadvantages as opening in 1st chair. On one hand, sometimes you miss better major partial when partner passes 1nt when 2M would have played better. On the other you solve some troublesome range problems after 1h-1s (1nt is underbid, 2nt overbid, 2s underbid, 2m on 3 carder gets murky), also guessing what to do after something like 1s-1nt-2c-2s-? Does partner have 6/7 ct and doubleton where moving goes minus or 9 count and you want to be in game?

2) Holding both 4 cd majors I would never go out of my way to open a 15-17 NT on a 14 count, there's no particular reason to. You want to get to your major partial if available and partner may not be able to move over a 1nt opening. 1nt would lead to missed major partials, and partner overbidding to game or 2nt on other hands.

If you are playing weak NT then it's a different story, as partner may play you for a stronger hand if you don't open the weak NT and you are playing K-S style heavy major raises.
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#3 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2018-January-21, 02:30

The one advantage of opening 1NT (15-17) is that it limits your hand immediately. What Mr. Tu says is entirely correct. With a passed partner it is favourable to show him your hand in one bid. Bidding around the edges with a 14 count and 4432/4423 and opening 1NT (15-17) isn't something I would do. I have played Acol (4 card majors) for many years, and whilst we open 1NT on a 12-14 count generally whatever the position, I have an acceptable agreement with my partner that with 4432/4423 in 3rd/4th we open 1 as opposed to 1NT so as not to miss a major suit fit.
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#4 User is offline   dsLawsd 

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Posted 2018-January-21, 02:54

Kit Woolsey has the best discussion in his book "Matchpoints"
suit texture can be the decider.
At Imps it is not a good idea to upgrade hands unless you can take an unusual amount of tricks for your 14.

Jeff Rubens book "The Secrets of Winning Bridge" on hand evaluation and
the form of scoring is also highly recommended.
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#5 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2018-January-21, 02:57

View Postxbabarx, on 2018-January-20, 23:05, said:

1) I would like to know experts views about advantages and disadvantages of opening 1 NT at 3rd and 4th seat holding 5 card Major

2) 3rd or 4th seat, holding 14 HCP, 4432 or 4423, advantages and disadvantages of opening 1NT
Thanks

Nowadays quite a number of top players regularly open 1NT on 10-12 pts in 3rd seat and non vul in 4th.
"It is not enough to be a good player, you must also play well"
- Dr Tarrasch(1862-1934)German Chess Grandmaster

Bridge is a game where you have two opponents...and often three(!)


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by how he handles the two's and three's" - Mollo's Hideous Hog
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#6 User is offline   0deary 

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Posted 2018-January-21, 03:42

Just on 5 card majors in 1NT:

Advantages- Really important to win the part game tussle as if we get it wrong we can lose shoals of points at MPs and even lose half a dozen imps. So giving your partner a good picture of our hands straight away after your 1NT has got to be good. Even if we use 5 card majors, provided we use puppet so we can check the underlying security of the better 5-3 fit

Disadvantages My 1NT broadcasts my points positionally to opponents and they could disrupt your puppet stayman particularly if we are and they are not. If they use Multi Landy then partner might feel less anxious at missing a major on my NT if they bid 2C but a bog standard P-P-1NT-2C alert Cappelletti can be troublesome
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#7 User is online   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-January-21, 04:27

View Postxbabarx, on 2018-January-20, 23:05, said:

2) 3rd or 4th seat, holding 14 HCP, 4432 or 4423, advantages and disadvantages of opening 1NT
Thanks


To me, this is completely the wrong way round. I'm a fan of a weak (12-14) NT, but the one seat at the table where I am inclined to play a stronger range is in third seat (particularly at IMPs). This is where you are most liable to face a penalty double. Also, facing a partner with two four-card majors and limited values, it seems very likely that you will fail to find a four-card fit in a major.
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#8 User is offline   Stefan_O 

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Posted 2018-January-21, 06:21

View Postxbabarx, on 2018-January-20, 23:05, said:

1) I would like to know experts views about advantages and disadvantages of opening 1 NT at 3rd and 4th seat holding 5 card Major

2) 3rd or 4th seat, holding 14 HCP, 4432 or 4423, advantages and disadvantages of opening 1NT
Thanks


Generally, I open 1M with 17 hcp, and bid it as 18 hcp.

I've just noticed, when playing with Gib and 1M-1NT is forcing (which I otherwise don't play),
in 1st and 2nd hand it usually works fine to open your 5card major with any 15-17 bal.
Since 1NT is forcing, you're fine to systemically rebid a 3-card minor, and will seldom have a problem after that.
The upside vs opening 1NT is, of course, you always find you 5-3 fit when pd has 3-support.

In 3rd/4th hand, if you open 1M and pd responds 1NT (non-forcing) you may have a problem with the rebid, so I then prefer 1NT with 15-16.
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#9 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-January-21, 07:49

View PostTramticket, on 2018-January-21, 04:27, said:

To me, this is completely the wrong way round. I'm a fan of a weak (12-14) NT, but the one seat at the table where I am inclined to play a stronger range is in third seat (particularly at IMPs). This is where you are most liable to face a penalty double. Also, facing a partner with two four-card majors and limited values, it seems very likely that you will fail to find a four-card fit in a major.


This is agreement dependent, particularly at pairs, the agreement that over 1N-2-2-2 opener will convert to 2 with 3-2 in the majors means you can do this when 4-4 and has proved useful.
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#10 User is offline   Joe_Old 

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Posted 2018-January-21, 10:39

You've asked a complex question. Lots of good advice already: two more points to consider in answer to question 1.

At IMPs you want to go plus. If I recall correctly, computer simulations show that a 5-2 fit tends to play better in 2 of a major than in 1NT. At any form of scoring in third seat you strain to open light in a major (I prefer to have a minor suit promise a full opener), therefore it can be doubly difficult to find a descriptive rebid over 1M - P - 1NT - P because opener's point range can be so wide. That's one reason why expert partnerships that I know particularly favor opening 1NT with a 5 card major and spend a lot of time working out continuations over 3rd seat openers, the aim being to stay low while identifying any kind of major suit fit.

Fourth seat doesn't have many of these problems since you pass out bad hands and partner can trust that opener is hoping for a constructive auction, where in third seat opener isn't just bidding a mild pre-empt (say 1 spade on AKxx xx Kxx Jxxx). Therefore, there is no reason to treat a 15-17, 5 card major hand any differently than in first seat or second.
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#11 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2018-January-21, 11:49

It is not really advisable to suppress a 5card major because 1) It gives a chance to partner to compete more efficiently if the need arises.2) If one opens instead 1NT in deference to 1H/S then there are a number of gadgets available to opponents like DONT,cappelletti (straight or modified),ASTRO,Transfers etc etc to put a wrench in the works.
4432 or 4423 hand must never be opened 1NT As it It can easily get passed out when a better major suit contract is available If the pair uses Drury ( simple or reverse) it is easier to find out a distributional game if one does not suppress a five card major.Precision system has a one round forcing 1NT bid available wherein one can locate a better minor suit contract if responder is short in Openers major.Partnet gets more enlightened about what to lead If Openers LHO buys the contract.
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#12 User is online   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2018-January-21, 12:04

1. honour distribution and possible rebid problems drive my choice exactly as they do in any other seat.

2. A lot depends on opening bidding style as my partnership is more conservative than most. 14's get the same upgrade for texture, 5-card suits etc. since you may well be facing 11 but if partner opens a lot of those it comes with more risk.

4-4-3-2 14's may benefit from being declarer with minor suit holdings like AQ or when white vs red to bug your lho (either shut them up or risk my partner having one of those 11 counts) but is a definite swing action we do rarely in 3rd to almost never in 4th. If my other choice is 1/ on 3 small I wouldn't need much of an excuse to open a quality 4-card major (more likely) or 1nt instead even in 4th.
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#13 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2018-January-21, 22:25

3d seat is no different than 1-2 seat when it comes to five-card majors opening 1NT with 5332 shape.

1. WIth 17 and a five-card major, it's generally right to treat it as 18 and open 1M unless you have the worst looking 17 count imaginable. The reason is that partner is going to pass 1NT with a lot of hands that can make game (support and a 7 or mediocre 8).

2. With 15-16 and five hearts, it's generally right to open 1NT. The reason is that if partner rebids 1S, you have no good bid. 1NT is now a distinct underbid; 2 of a minor misstates your shape badly; and 2NT is a gross overbid.

3. With 15-16 and five spades, expert opinion is split. I think the majority of experts probably open 1NT most of the time, especially at IMPs. I like this approach, but some don't, and I'll play whatever partner likes here.

The pluses for 1NT here are (A) harder for the opponents to compete; (B) gets your hand across in one bid; © right-sides everything. The minuses are (A) if partner has 3 spades, you may be better in spades, especially at MPs (IMPs not so clear); (B) if your best spot is a 5/3 minor partial, you'll miss that.

That's in real life.

With GIB, I think you'll get the best results opening 1NT on all 14 counts with no 5-card major and all 15-16 counts with 5332 (even with a 5-card major). 17 and a 5-card major better to open 1M so as not to miss game.
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#14 User is offline   kfitz 

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Posted 2018-January-21, 22:27

Opening or rebidding in Nt partner will be able to judge the limits of the contract very well as your range is so narrowly defined. that is a huge upside, and I am sceptical that the downside, that small subset of hands where 1nt fails but 2M would squeak home on a 5/3 fit. comes near to compensating, there are other pluses too to opening 1nt with a 5 card major, if the opening leader against nt doesn't have a long major themselves , they are likely to try and hit partners long majorl... which turns out to be yours... having said that, 17 with any 5 card suit is usually too good for a 15=17 nt but quite good enough for a 2nt rebid.. In first and second seat you will likely show a profit by optimistically upgrading close decisions to open 1nt or 2nt.. In 3rd or 4th you shouldnt' be upgrading too generously. Why? pd is limited to 11 points or less, the last thing you want is to provoke an invite to 3nt or 6nt .... that you will decline...
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#15 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 05:17

View PostPhilG007, on 2018-January-21, 02:57, said:

Nowadays quite a number of top players regularly open 1NT on 10-12 pts in 3rd seat and non vul in 4th.


Who are these players? They must be insane.

View PostTramticket, on 2018-January-21, 04:27, said:

To me, this is completely the wrong way round. I'm a fan of a weak (12-14) NT, but the one seat at the table where I am inclined to play a stronger range is in third seat (particularly at IMPs). This is where you are most liable to face a penalty double. Also, facing a partner with two four-card majors and limited values, it seems very likely that you will fail to find a four-card fit in a major.


Yes, at IMPs I switch to weak NT in 3rd.

LOL I meant strong!
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#16 User is offline   kontoleon 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 14:23

General problems. 1NT 15-17(with 5 card Major) you miss possible 5-3 fit in Major.

Problem with open 1M. if not fount fit may not have good 2nd anwser(1nt show 12-14) 2nt show (18-19), and if you have 5-3-3-2 you have not perfect return...
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#17 User is offline   el mister 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 09:34

View Postmiamijd, on 2018-January-21, 22:25, said:



With GIB, I think you'll get the best results opening 1NT on all 14 counts with no 5-card major and all 15-16 counts with 5332 (even with a 5-card major). 17 and a 5-card major better to open 1M so as not to miss game.

Do you look for a 5 card minor to open a 14 count against gib, or is any 4342, 4333 etc ripe for an upgrade? I tend to like a 5 card suit as the basis for upgrading 14s in real life [there are of course other considerations], but bashing the bots around is a different game. See plenty of off-shape / off range 1NT openers getting thrown around.
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