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Bid or not?

#1 User is offline   ksk2005 

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Posted 2018-January-17, 20:34

@Your bid?


If you were North would you bid further or agree with pass?
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#2 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2018-January-17, 20:59

What is 2H? It must be artificial given the South hand, so what does it mean? Perhaps it was a typo of 2S (good diamond raise)?

Assuming it should be 2S:
- South can't follow it up with 3D as that's non-forcing, showing about an ace less than what he has. 3NT seems better with the spade stop and heart tenace to protect.
- North should be forcing to game as well - 3S over 3D to ask for a stop seems a sensible approach.

ahydra
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#3 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2018-January-17, 21:04

You have a strange link to twitter in the first line. Is that intentional?

South's bidding is strange. 2 must be an artificial bid showing diamond support. Could you explain how the two players interpreted the auction? Maybe South in fact bid 2 (not 2) meant as a new suit (maybe you are playing a short-diamond system?) and after 3, South thought you were in a game force, while North thought South had shown a weak raise?

Please explain!
You might speculate on the psychopathology of some posters but hating them seems excessive --- Nige1
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#4 User is offline   ksk2005 

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Posted 2018-January-17, 21:12

Sorry there was a problem with hand distribution on the initial post ! I corrected with right cards. Hope now it makes more sense
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#5 User is offline   ksk2005 

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Posted 2018-January-17, 21:18

I apologize from Helen-t and ahydra:( for the error on initial post.
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#6 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2018-January-17, 21:20

Ah right :)

I am not sure what exactly 3 should show.

- If it shows a minimum hand, South needs to bid 3NT as 3 could be passed. Unless you play very light openings so that South doesn't have enough for game. Then again, North would be too strong to bid 3 in that case.
- If it shows extras (and 2 was forcing), then you are in a game force so South's 3 is fine but obviously North has to bid again.
- If it is wide ranging (11+, forcing for one round), then South needs to bid 3NT. Then again, I am not sure if such a style is playable as you will end up in 4 or 3NT on some hands where both partners are minimum.
- If 2 was nonforcing then North's bidding may be ok (unless you open very light so North has a lot extras) but obviously South can't make a nonforcing 2 bid with this hand.

So you may need to have a discussion about the forcing character of 2 and 3 in your system. In any case, North should bid again (3, maybe?).
You might speculate on the psychopathology of some posters but hating them seems excessive --- Nige1
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#7 User is offline   heart76 

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Posted 2018-January-18, 02:05

How I play (regular 2/1 or SAYC), 2H is forcing 1 round, 10+ with 5+ cards. Nothing wrong here.
3C is not showing extras since 2H is forcing. It denies 3 H and describes 44+ in the minors. The only alternative I see is 2S, which would be either a strong H raise or asking for a S stop to play 3NT, showing 14+ HCP. That would be a matter of partnership agreement.
After 3C, for me 3D shows exactly 5H, 4+D and preference for a trump contract. It might or might not imply the absence of a S stop. It is kinda forcing, so in N I would bid 3S asking for a stop.
Being S, I would personally bid a direct 3NT over 3C, to show good S stop and values in the range 12-14 HCP, also denying 6 H.
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#8 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2018-January-18, 02:10

Invalid hand. East has 12 cards and South 14 as it stands. Anyway, it all depends whether South's 2 is looked at as a free bid - your interpretation no doubt - or as more - South's interpretation. Most South's would have doubled East's 1 bid to show s, and ended up in 3NT without further ado. South bidding 3 just muddied the waters and that's why you have posted this hand in the forums.
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#9 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-January-18, 05:41

Assume East has South's 4 - which adjusts the hands to the correct number of cards and makes East's over-call more standard:

Early calls look reasonable to me, but if I were South, I would bid 3NT instead of 3 at the final call.
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#10 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2018-January-18, 08:01

14 12 (S&E) hands are always tough to judge but here 2h seems reasonable. N would generally rebid nt with a spade stop except when really distributional so for the time being we have to assume N rebid 3c because there was nothing better to do. S has a problem here. The 3d bid looks reasonable enough but is scary if the partnership may all too easily treat the bid as a non forcing preference. I do not care for 3N with only the ace as a stopper since the ace is a great card for both 3n and 5/6m. The hand is better since we have 3 dia vs 2 (openers hopefully 5+ minor Jxx K AKQx xxxxx) but I still feel NT should be in the mix IF we can get N to fess up to a partial spade stop. I vote for 3s. Opener not responding NT (vs 3c) all but denied a spade stop so this bid should clearly ask for a partial stop. N will gladly bid 3n ending the proceedings with N a little bit edgy due to the extra values but not feeling too bad because of all the jacks.

ummm err the QUESTION asked and avoided so far what would I do as north over a nebulous 3d? I have extra values so even if the original 2h bid was shades somewhat we should have close to game values I guess I will continue with 3s hopefully asking p to bid 3n with a partial spade stop. This might be wrong siding 3n but its the best I can do once p has bid 3d.
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#11 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2018-January-18, 13:01

It appears that there are 14/12 cards resp.with S/E. So I shall presume that there is one spade card extra and one less with S and E resp.In our system a heart bid in this situation is a passable bid and hence is out. We ,Hence,make a negative double and then over Openers 2C( natural preference since he does not have 4hearts)we bid 2S asking for a partial spade stopper and the 3NT contract will be reached.If N does not have a partial stopper then his bid shall be 3D. North may have something like xxx,x,AKJxx,KQxx when only a contract of 5D may make if one guesses the DQ (As also D are no verse than 3/2)
The Question asked was whether you will bid or pass as North.
Looking at the HK ,the answer is “Of course YES .I shall bid 5D” and go down if the cards are poorly placed.
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#12 User is offline   kontoleon 

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Posted 2018-January-18, 15:13

My opinion East bid 1s with 4 cards s and only 7 points? (anyway)
In fact North opening D and rebit C. So must have 5(+)D and 4(+)C and 13 + points
South has 12+ points and stops in Majors so 3NT is much better. After 3D i pass...(standar American)
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#13 User is online   miamijd 

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Posted 2018-January-18, 17:18

I don't think either North or South acquitted themselves very well on this one. I'll assume "standard" 2/1 bidding. I'll also assume that South had only 3 spades and that East had 5 (there are 12 cards in East and 14 in South, but from the bidding, it seems as though East ought to have another spade).

The first round of bidding seems very normal. In the second round, however, things started to go off the rails.

I wouldn't take 3C from North as 100% forcing. Suppose I am sitting South with something like:

Qxx
AQxxx
x
Qxxx

Do I really want to bid again? Not unless North has extras for his bid, I don't.

So I think North probably should bid 2S as a game force designed to elicit more information from South.

South's 3D bid is much worse. There is no way this is forcing in standard systems. If your partner has opened and you have enough for game, you can't make a non-forcing bid below game. I think South should bid 3NT here, although admittedly that could be wrong-siding the hand.

North's pass of 3D seems like a radical view to me. 16 HCP opposite a 2H 10+ bid means we need to be in game. 3S appears right on the auction, asking partner to bid 3NT with a spade stop.

My auction would probably go something like this (I am going to assume East bids 1S with his 7HCP and 5-bagger, even though I probably would pass at IMPs).

1D (1S) 2H
2S 3S(1) or 2NT
3NT

(1) showing a hard stop (As or Ks) and probably only five hearts (with 6, rebid the hearts)

The reason for 3S is to right-side the hand. Here, 3S needs to be showing, not asking (even though in most cases it would be asking), because with no stop for NT, South would just bid 3C, 3D, or 3H, and with a soft stop, South would bid NT. If you don't like the 3S bid carrying this meaning in this auction (or don't think you can segregate showing from asking depending on the auction), then South can bid 2NT at his second turn and North can raise to 3NT.

Cheers,
mike
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#14 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2018-January-18, 17:58

Both North and South were too timid.

North has a 16 HCP hand opposite a presumed 11+ hand from South's 2 bid. If the auction proceeds through 3 as indicated, it should be worth a 3 bid by North asking about at least a partial stopper. South should find an easy 3 NT bid then.

But even before that, I tend to agree with gszes that South can ask about with a 3 bid. At MPs, I wouldn't even ask and would just bid 3 NT. If 3 is bid by South, I think J8x is enough of a partial stop to bid 3 NT. BTW, with a 14 HCP 3 1/2 QT hand opposite an opener by North, I'm thinking it's virtually a game force hand. If North rejects NT by a 4 call over 3 , I'll give up and preference to 4 .
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