# BBO Discussion Forums: A class of spade systems - BBO Discussion Forums

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## A class of spade systems

### #1nullve

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Posted 2018-January-17, 07:36

What I've been toying with lately:

1 = "4+ C, unBAL" / ?
1 = "4+D3-C, unBAL" / ?
1 = "4+H3-D3-C, unBAL" / ?
1+: several possibilites, see below.

If x<, then

1x-?:

1x+1 = "positive relay"
1x+2 = "negative relay"
(...),

1x-[1x+1]; ?:

2x-3 = "neither 1-suited nor canapé" / ?
...2x-2 = relay
......2y-2(y>x) = "(4)5+x4+y" / ?
.........2y-1 = INV+ relay
.........(...)
......(...)
...(...)
2x-2 = "1-suited" / ?
...2x-1 = INV+ relay
...(...)
2y-2(y>x) = "4+x5+y" / ?
...2y-1 = INV+ relay
...(...)
(...)

and

1x-[1x+2]; ?:

2x-2 = "neither 1-suited nor canapé" / ?
...2x-1 = relay
......2x = "limited, neither 1-suited nor canapé"
.........P: allowed
.........2x+1 = P/C
.........(...)
......2M(M>x) = strong, (4)5+x4+M, NF"
......(...)
2x-1 = "1-suited" / ?
2x = "lmited, (unknown) canapé"
...P: allowed
...2x+1 = P/C
...(...)
2M(M>x) = "strong, 4+x5+M, NF"
(...).

Some 1+ options:

1 = BAL outside of 1N range
1N = some range, BAL
2 = "6+ S, 1-suited" (=> 2 = positive relay)

1 = BAL outside of 1N range OR "6+ S, 1-suited"
1N = some range, BAL.

1 = 15+ BAL / "16+, 6+ S, 1-suited" / other strong options?
1N = 12-14 BAL
2(e.g.) = "10-15, 6+ S, 1-suited" (=> 2 = INV+ relay).

-------------

Hopeless?
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### #2awm

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Posted 2018-January-18, 02:57

Some problems:

1. You’re showing the wrong suits by opening a shorter minor in preference to a longer major. This is ok in unobstructed auctions but creates a lot of problems when opponents bid.
2. With two relays there is not much space for suit showing bids by responder. Sometimes the best contract is in responder’s five or six card suit and not clear you can find this unless he has a GF for full relay.
3. “Natural unlimited” openings can have trouble distinguishing the full range. Having more than the usual number of shapes won’t make it easier; even Fantunes started 1-red at 14+ and they had fewer shapes to deal with and the advantage of cheating....
4. Not clear where 4441/5440 patterns go in this structure.
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
1

### #3nullve

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Posted 2018-January-19, 04:09

awm, on 2018-January-18, 02:57, said:

Some problems:

1. You’re showing the wrong suits by opening a shorter minor in preference to a longer major. This is ok in unobstructed auctions but creates a lot of problems when opponents bid.
2. With two relays there is not much space for suit showing bids by responder. Sometimes the best contract is in responder’s five or six card suit and not clear you can find this unless he has a GF for full relay.
3. “Natural unlimited” openings can have trouble distinguishing the full range. Having more than the usual number of shapes won’t make it easier; even Fantunes started 1-red at 14+ and they had fewer shapes to deal with and the advantage of cheating....
4. Not clear where 4441/5440 patterns go in this structure.

1. I agree, but the problems will likely be most severe after a 1 opening, when Opener hasn't denied any suit, than after a 1 opening, when he has practically denied clubs, allowing club bids to be ART in auctions such as 1-(P)-1-(2); 3. To alleviate the problems after 1, Roman Twos could be used, although I'm not sure they would solve more problems than they create. (Btw, here's one form a "Roman spade" system might take. )
2. I think there's just about enough space for full relays on GF hands (see below), but finding most major fits on partscore deals is a problem I need to solve.
3. See below for an attempt to solve this problem.
4. It's not clear to me either, but one vague idea (which might ultimately not work) is that the since the structures 1-1; 1-1; 1N+ and 1-1; 1N+ are supposed to be kind of mirror images or each another, but it's clearly better to use the latter for 5C5O hands (especially 5C5M hands, so that 5-3 M fits aren't missed), the former can take care of 4C(441) hands. Similarly, the 1-1; 1-1N; 2+ structure could take care of 4441 hands.

Here's how I imagine fleshing out the structure after the positive relay (and I suppose something similar can be done after 1-1N, depending on how the opening is defined) when Opener has an unbalanced hand in the "10-21" range:

1-1; ?:

1 = catchall
...1 = relay
......1N = "10-18, (4)5+C4+D"
.........P = allowed
.........2 = INV+ relay
............2 = "10-12"
............2 = "16-18"
............2+ = "13-15"
.........2 = to play opposite "10-15", GF opposite "16-18"
.........(...)
......2M-2 = "10-15/19-21, (4)5+C4+M"
.........2M-1 = INV+ relay
............2M = "10-12"
............2M+1 = "19-21"
............[2M+2]+ = "13-15"
.........(...)
......2M = "16-18, (4)5+C4+M" (NF)
......2N+ = ?
...(...)
1 = "10-21, 6+ C, 1-suited" OR "19-21, 5+m4+Om"
...1N = INV+ relay
......2 = "10-12"
......2 = "19-21, 5+m4+Om"
.........2 = relay
............2 = "5+C4D"
............2N = "5+C5+D"
............3+ = "4C5+D"
......2 = "13-15"
......2 = "19-21, 1-suited"
......2N+ = "16-18"
...(...)
1N = "10-18, 4+C5+D"
...P = allowed
...2 = INV+ relay
......2 = "10-12"
......2 = "16-18"
......2+ = "13-15"
...2 = to play opposite "10-15", GF opposite "16-18"
...(...)
2M-2 = "10-15/19-21, 4+C5+M"
...2M-1 = INV+ relay
......2M = "10-12"
......2M+1 = "19-21"
......[2M+2]+ = "13-15"
...(...)
2M = "16-18, 4+C5+M" (NF)
2N+ = ?

1-1; ?:

1 = catchall
...1N = relay
......2M-2 = "10-15/19-21, (4)5+D4+M"
.........2M-1 = INV+ relay
............2M = "10-12"
............2M+1 = "19-21"
............[2M+2]+ = "13-15"
.........(...)
......2M = "16-18, (4)5+D4+M" (NF)
......2N+ = ?
...(...)
1N = "10-21, 6+ D, 1-suited"
...2 = INV+ relay
......2 = "10-12"
......2 = "13-15"
......2 = "19-21"
......2N+ = "16-18"
...(...)
2M-2 = "10-15/19-21, 4+D5+M"
...2M-1 = INV+ relay
......2M = "10-12"
......2M+1 = "19-21"
......[2M+2]+ = "13-15"
...(...)
2M = "16-18, 4+D5+M" (NF)
2N+ = ?

1-1; ?:

1N = catchall
...2 = relay
......2 = "10-15/19-21, (4)5+H4+S"
.........2 = INV+ relay
............2 = "10-12"
............2N = "19-21"
............3+ = "13-15"
.........(...)
......2 = ?
......2 = "16-18, (4)5+H4+S" (NF)
......2N+ = ?
...(...)
2 = "10-15/19-21, 6+ H, 1-suited"
...2 = INV+ relay
......2 = "10-12"
......2 = "19-21"
......2N+ = "13-15"
...(...)
2 = "10-15/19-21, 4+H5+S"
...2 = INV+ relay
......2 = "10-12"
......2N = "19-21"
......3+ = "13-15"
...(...)
2 = "16-18, 6+ H, 1-suited" (NF)
2 = "16-18, 4+H5+S" (NF)
2N+ = ?

As you can see, there's also a lot of space available for unbalanced hands with "22+". Maybe not enough for full relays, but at least much more than after a standard strong 2 opening.

Spoiler

Spoiler

This post has been edited by nullve: 2018-February-05, 03:31

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### #4nullve

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Posted 2018-January-29, 17:48

Maybe a similar "heart system",

1 = "10+, 4+ C, unBAL"
1 = "10+, 4+D3-C, unBAL"
1 = "10+, either 5+S4+H or 1-suited w/ 6+ H" OR 14+ BAL
...1 = "0-6/10+, relay"
......1N = 14-19 BAL (playable because Responder can't have "7-9")
......2 = "10-18, 6+ H, 1-suited" (=> 2 = "10+, relay")
......2 = "10-18, 5+ S" (=> 2 = "10+, relay")
......2 = "19-21, 6+ H, 1-suited"
......2 = "19-21, 5+ S"
......(...)
...1N = "7-9", to play opposite 14-16 BAL, GF opposite 17 BAL
......P = 14-16 BAL
......2 = 17+ BAL
......2 = "6+ H"
......2 = "10-15, 5+ S" (NF)
......2 = "16+, 5+ S"
......(...)
...(...)
1 = "10+, either 4+S5+H or 1-suited w/ 6+ S"
...1N = "0-6/10+, relay"
......2 = "10-18, 5+ H" (=> 2 = "10+, relay")
......2 = "10-18, 6+ S, 1-suited" (=> 2 = "10+, relay")
......2 = "19-21, 5+ H"
......2 = "19-21, 6+ S, 1-suited"
......(...)
...2 = "7-9, relay"
......2 = "5+ H"
......2 = "6+ S"
......(...)
...(...)
1N = 11-13 BAL
2+ = weak-only preempts,

is better? (It's not quite a strong heart, natural 1m system, but it's close.)

I guess it's possible to use the 1st and 2nd step as "0-6/10+" and "7-9" relays, respectively, also in response to 1m.