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What's my best bid?

#1 User is offline   jerdonald 

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Posted 2018-January-08, 21:20

BBO forum,
2/1 ACBL

Recently I held:
S Kxxx
H KTxx
D AQxxx
C -

RHO opened 1C and I doubled looking for a fit or possible game in majors.
LHO passed and my partner jumped to 2 hearts showing 9-11 HCP and RHO passed.

Now I have a large selection of bids including 2S, 3C, 3D, 3H or ? My hand
is worth up to 17 points and my partner would know what the 3C bid shows.

What's my best bid here??

Jerryd
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#2 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-January-08, 22:09

The math suggest bidding game in 4 . Your partner has a max of 11 so there should be no slam.
Sarcasm is a state of mind
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#3 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2018-January-08, 22:21

4
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#4 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2018-January-09, 00:45

Although 4hearts is a quantitative bid it does not express the full value of your hand with only 5 losers as played in hearts.Partner can value his hand better if 1) either bid 4C on the wayto 4H or 2)bid 3D and later bid Hearts had the D suit been a wee bit better .Personally,I shall prefer to bid 4C which some may find unpalatable.
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#5 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-January-09, 03:50

View Postmsjennifer, on 2018-January-09, 00:45, said:

Although 4hearts is a quantitative bid it does not express the full value of your hand with only 5 losers as played in hearts.Partner can value his hand better if 1) either bid 4C on the wayto 4H or 2)bid 3D and later bid Hearts had the D suit been a wee bit better .Personally,I shall prefer to bid 4C which some may find unpalatable.


4 says it all and will end the auction (the opponents have both passed and will not be competing over 4).

The values aren't there to look for a slam (even game might not be there on some layouts). So why suggest to partner that it might be?
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#6 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-January-09, 04:59

View PostTramticket, on 2018-January-09, 03:50, said:

4 says it all and will end the auction (the opponents have both passed and will not be competing over 4).

The values aren't there to look for a slam (even game might not be there on some layouts). So why suggest to partner that it might be?


Because partner never has Ax, AQxxx, J109, xxx and you make a grand on the finesse against the opener, or Qx, AQxxx, Kxx, xxx where 6 is just cold (even with xx it's good as opener is likely to have A).

Of course a slam can be there, but the 5 level is not safe.

3 (good raise) or 4 (splinter) would be my choice.
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#7 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-January-09, 05:34

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-January-09, 04:59, said:

Because partner never has Ax, AQxxx, J109, xxx and you make a grand on the finesse against the opener, or Qx, AQxxx, Kxx, xxx where 6 is just cold (even with xx it's good as opener is likely to have A).

Of course a slam can be there, but the 5 level is not safe.

3 (good raise) or 4 (splinter) would be my choice.


Partner can have those holdings.

Partner can also hold: XXX, AQJXX, XXX, AX. This will look like a maximum to partner, but even the four-level might not be safe.
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#8 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-January-09, 06:30

View PostTramticket, on 2018-January-09, 05:34, said:

Partner can have those holdings.

Partner can also hold: XXX, AQJXX, XXX, AX. This will look like a maximum to partner, but even the four-level might not be safe.


This is my point, you have no clue what partner has, so ask him (and if opps have 11 clubs they may tell you).
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#9 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2018-January-09, 07:11

The problem is that 4 is generally either a singleton or void, but this can be inefficient as partner might be looking at a good holding opposite x, that is not so useful opposite a void. I would suggest that you bid 3 followed by 4 (unless partner signs off with 4) and bid 4 directly only with a singleton
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#10 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2018-January-09, 07:19

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-January-09, 04:59, said:

Because partner never has Ax, AQxxx, J109, xxx and you make a grand on the finesse against the opener, or Qx, AQxxx, Kxx, xxx where 6 is just cold (even with xx it's good as opener is likely to have A).

Of course a slam can be there, but the 5 level is not safe.

3 (good raise) or 4 (splinter) would be my choice.

i
Ax AQxxx JT9 xxx wants to be in game opposite Kxxx Kxxx Kxxx x or Kxxx Kxx Axxx xx. This hand should not bid 2.
Obviously we have a recall bias in favour of the assholes. -helene_t
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#11 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2018-January-09, 07:38

View PostTramticket, on 2018-January-09, 05:34, said:

Partner can have those holdings.

Partner can also hold: XXX, AQJXX, XXX, AX. This will look like a maximum to partner, but even the four-level might not be safe.


The fact that the 4 level might not be safe is no reason to avoid searching for slam as long as we can shut down the search at game level when it does not look good. The ace of a splintered suit is NOT AS GOOD as having those HCP outside the splintered suit because we want to aggressively seek slam and can do so with less HCP when a void is present. The 4c bid simply asks partner to consider slam if they have a hand with no wasted values in clubs and are near max for their bidding. If partner holds a good 10-11 count they should be able to freely bid at the 6 level. With slightly less making an interim bid (if available) like 4d could show some slam interest but not enough to go beyond game.
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#12 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2018-January-09, 08:27

View Postjerdonald, on 2018-January-08, 21:20, said:

BBO forum,
2/1 ACBL

Recently I held:
S Kxxx
H KTxx
D AQxxx
C -

RHO opened 1C and I doubled looking for a fit or possible game in majors.
LHO passed and my partner jumped to 2 hearts showing 9-11 HCP and RHO passed.

Now I have a large selection of bids including 2S, 3C, 3D, 3H or ? My hand
is worth up to 17 points and my partner would know what the 3C bid shows.

What's my best bid here??

Jerryd

In an experienced,established partnership I would bid 3 cue bidding the enemy suit asking partner for
further information and showing mild slam interest. In a casual partnership I would just bid 4 and hope we
haven't missed a slam..
It's not a sin to play bridge,but it's a crime if you play it badly(!) ;)
"It is not enough to be a good player,you must also play well"
- Dr Tarrasch(1862-1934)German Chess Grandmaster
Bridge is a game where you have two opponents...and often three(!)
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#13 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2018-January-09, 09:33

View PostPhilG007, on 2018-January-09, 08:27, said:

In an experienced,established partnership I would bid 3 cue bidding the enemy suit asking partner for
further information and showing mild slam interest. In a casual partnership I would just bid 4 and hope we
haven't missed a slam..


IMHO always try and bid like your partner knows what is going on. I recently had a conversation where I was chatting about splinters and my counter part asked me if I realized my 4d bid (after my counterpart hand made a 3s splinter 1d p 1h p 3s p 4d) was cooperating in slam bidding not a game invite. Ok THEN you can dial back your expectations but until then try to avoid masterminding simply because you are unsure of the knowledge level of your partner. They may make as assumption that YOU are the one with a lack of working knowledge and move on quickly to someone else and a rich partnership might be missed.

I would save the 3c cue bid followed by an eventual 4h with a hand around an ace stronger (not the club ace) than the one shown in the problem. There are many hands responder cannot cooperate for slam opposite a direct 4c bid but they can readily cooperate once you show extra values. You did not mention how strong you would need to be in order to use 4c as a splinter (if at all) and you might need more values to use the splinter. I can only suggest that the stronger hand goes slower as a standard method for handling hands with wide ranging values and thus suggest the immediate 4c with the weaker problem hand and save the 3c cue for stronger hands.
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#14 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2018-January-09, 09:38

Just bid 4H. Slam is a long way off unless partner has underbid.

Incidentally I wouldn’t require 9 points for a jump response. AQxxx and out would be enough. I’d certainly take stronger action on most 11 counts (taking into consideration water values of course ).
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#15 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2018-January-09, 12:53

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-January-09, 04:59, said:

Because partner never has Ax, AQxxx, J109, xxx and you make a grand on the finesse against the opener, or Qx, AQxxx, Kxx, xxx where 6 is just cold (even with xx it's good as opener is likely to have A).

Of course a slam can be there, but the 5 level is not safe.

3 (good raise) or 4 (splinter) would be my choice.


Anyone who bids 2 with this over 1 double, needs some serious work about hand evaluation. And by saying "serious work" I was trying to be polite.
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#16 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-January-09, 12:58

View PostMrAce, on 2018-January-09, 12:53, said:

Anyone who bids 2 with this over 1 double, needs some serious work about hand evaluation. And by saying "serious work" I was trying to be polite.


I was taking what was in the OP, not what I would do
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#17 User is offline   RD350LC 

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Posted 2018-January-09, 13:25

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-January-09, 04:59, said:

Because partner never has Ax, AQxxx, J109, xxx and you make a grand on the finesse against the opener, or Qx, AQxxx, Kxx, xxx where 6 is just cold (even with xx it's good as opener is likely to have A).

Of course a slam can be there, but the 5 level is not safe.

3 (good raise) or 4 (splinter) would be my choice.

Given that partner would know what 3 or 4 would mean, I would make either of these bids. Given that you have to make ONE bid, I would choose 4.
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#18 User is offline   iandayre 

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Posted 2018-January-09, 14:17

To Jerdonald,

Important learning point - you must understand the problems with the possible choices you selected. Both 2S and 3D are absolutely out of the question - both deny 4 card H support. 3H, a non-forcing call, is a significant underbid, as the slam tries suggested by others show. 3C, intending to continue to game if partner bids 3H, is reasonable. It is interesting that you did not even consider 4H, which is the most straightforward call.
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#19 User is offline   SelfGovern 

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Posted 2018-January-09, 16:05

View Postmsjennifer, on 2018-January-09, 00:45, said:

Although 4hearts is a quantitative bid it does not express the full value of your hand with only 5 losers as played in hearts.Partner can value his hand better if 1) either bid 4C on the wayto 4H or 2)bid 3D and later bid Hearts had the D suit been a wee bit better .Personally,I shall prefer to bid 4C which some may find unpalatable.


There are two huge problems with a 3 bid:
1) Many will play it non-forcing, and while partner won't pass often, he sure will some of the time, and you'll be rather embarrassed in the post-mortem as you explain why you're in a 5-2 diamond fit instead of a 4-4 or better heart fit (and game).
2) It denies four hearts. This is a killer when partner raises your diamonds, and your heart calls are now seen as cuebids, not "to play" (as well as when partner passes 3).
Liberty breeds responsibility
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#20 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2018-January-09, 16:36


I rank
1. 4 = LIM. Gospel according to Mr Ace and Cherdano.
2. 4 = SPL. Overbid.
3. 3 = LIM. Underbid.
4. 3 = CUE. Usually denies 4-card support.
5. 3 = NAT. Source of tricks but misdescriptive.
6. 2 = NAT. Misdescriptive.

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