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Bidding slam Taking a 3NT out to 6D

#1 User is offline   pdmunro 

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Posted 2018-January-07, 02:14


This hand makes a slam in diamonds. A number of tables bid the slam. Some Norths jumped directly to 6D over South's 3NT. Some partnerships explored their options by bidding their aces. We stayed in 3NT for a poor result.

How could North justify jumping straight to 6D?
Peter . . . . AKQ . . . . K = 3 points = 1 trick
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#2 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2018-January-07, 03:04

View Postpdmunro, on 2018-January-07, 02:14, said:


This hand makes a slam in diamonds. A number of tables bid the slam. Some Norths jumped directly to 6D over South's 3NT. Some partnerships explored their options by bidding their aces. We stayed in 3NT for a poor result.

How could North justify jumping straight to 6D?


I do not know how to reach to slam but I have an advice;

Over 2 both 2 and 3 are artificial and forcing bids, mostly known as "3rd suit forcing" and used when opener rebids his minor at 2 level. North hand should start 2 over 2 in order to avoid wasting space. Not that it would have solved your problems for that hand unless you have clear agreements on which bid shows what over 2, but it will save you a lot of space in some other hands as well as it would have on this hand..... 3 by North does NOT even show clubs, so why waste an entire level?
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#3 User is offline   mcphee 

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Posted 2018-January-07, 03:19

Some players take shots that work. Here at slam is 50% on a H lead, which happens to be onside and they make 12 or 13 tricks. Frankly I think jumping to 6D after 3N is a silly bid as there is known wastage in S. 4D obviously shows slam interest and allows sensible exploration.
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#4 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2018-January-07, 04:24

with 3 x ten in hand and six card minor, south hand is 14 but is very good 14 so I would grade hand upward and think about opening 1nt 15/17. however, how you get to 6 after 1nt opening is still a question?
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#5 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2018-January-07, 05:26

View Postmcphee, on 2018-January-07, 03:19, said:

Some players take shots that work. Here at slam is 50% on a H lead, which happens to be onside and they make 12 or 13 tricks. Frankly I think jumping to 6D after 3N is a silly bid as there is known wastage in S. 4D obviously shows slam interest and allows sensible exploration.


Ummm...no. slam has much more than just finesse on lead. You are talking as if we play grand slam.

  • on a K or Q of lead you are pretty well placed. ( goes on )
  • on a small lead you still have many outs before you decide to go back to club finesse. Such as 3-3 hearts or catching the 9 or an honor with West,

So overall, even with the worst lead for us you have good odds.
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#6 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2018-January-07, 09:27

At imps north may be inspired enough by the lack of a 3 bid from south and pull 3nt to 4, get a 4 cue and eventually get there. An auction I would say I wish I had done that about as often as actually doing it.

At pairs I can't see either hand risking stalling out in 5 unless in a gambling mood. My partnership can get out in 4nt after that but many pairs can't.
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#7 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2018-January-07, 15:18

An important part of bidding is to consider not only what partner has bid, but also what partner has not bid.

Consider what responder knows about from the bidding. With a hand with 4+ , opener is likely to bid 1 over 1 . So opener likely doesn't have 4 . With a balanced hand including 5-3-3-2 hands with 5 , opener would likely bid 1 NT. After 3 , opener would normally bid 3 when holding 3 to get to a contract. Also, opener is very to have a 6 card suit when rebidding 2 . Also, opener is unlikely to have 4 else there would have been a likely 2 rebid over 1 .

So what's responder's picture of opener's hand --

-- doubleton (Kx) or tripleton stopper

-- no more than a doubleton

-- likely 6

-- less than 4

So likely hands for opener are 3=1=6=3, 2=2=6=3, or 3=2=6=2. So responder might just carry on with a 4 slam try knowing that his/her hand fits well with opener's hand when opener has a stiff or a control.
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#8 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2018-January-08, 06:18

This is not a great slam. At pairs I would accept 3N. On a heart lead you need the club finesse to work. The problem with exploring is that you may show opps the optimal defence. On the other hand there are plenty of South hands that are consistent with the bidding that have only one ace so punting 6 is also high risk. Indeed p may well have
S KQx
H Qx
D AJTxxx
C QT

Now 6 looks pretty foolish and if you cant stop in 4N you could be down in 5 when 3N was solid gold

Indeed
S KQx
H KQ
D JTxxxx
C QT

Is also consistent
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#9 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2018-January-08, 07:30

View Postnekthen, on 2018-January-08, 06:18, said:

This is not a great slam. At pairs I would accept 3N. On a heart lead you need the club finesse to work.



Nope you do not necessarily need it.
I don't know why you guys make such claims even after someone explained that you do not need finesse on lead?
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#10 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2018-January-08, 08:14

would've opened 1N with the south hand
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#11 User is online   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-January-08, 08:54

View Posteagles123, on 2018-January-08, 08:14, said:

would've opened 1N with the south hand


Really? I play a weak NT so not my system. I agree with the upgrade and I would have opened 1 and rebid 1NT (15-18 in our system). I can understand opening a strong NT, hiding a weak six-card suit, but do you really hide a six-card suit headed by AJ10?

I guess that we are both missing 6 - at least at pairs.
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#12 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-January-08, 09:41

View PostTramticket, on 2018-January-08, 08:54, said:

Really? I play a weak NT so not my system. I agree with the upgrade and I would have opened 1 and rebid 1NT (15-18 in our system). I can understand opening a strong NT, hiding a weak six-card suit, but do you really hide a six-card suit headed by AJ10?

I guess that we are both missing 6 - at least at pairs.


I would have opened a strong NT if I had one available. 1N-2-2-3-3 and now you have shown 15-17 ostensibly 3253 if you don't open 5422s 1N, with a decent 5 card diamond suit.

Kxx, Ax, AJ10xx, KQx is a solid grand with a hand that I'd probably have upgraded out of 1N but make Q the 10 and 6 is really good, no spade honour and it's excellent.
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#13 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2018-January-08, 10:14

View PostMrAce, on 2018-January-08, 07:30, said:

Nope you do not necessarily need it.
I don't know why you guys make such claims even after someone explained that you do not need finesse on lead?


Sorry you are correct. In fact, I believe that the correct slam is 6N as there is no need for a spade ruff
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#14 User is online   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-January-08, 10:24

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-January-08, 09:41, said:

I would have opened a strong NT if I had one available. 1N-2-2-3-3 and now you have shown 15-17 ostensibly 3253 if you don't open 5422s 1N, with a decent 5 card diamond suit.

Kxx, Ax, AJ10xx, KQx is a solid grand with a hand that I'd probably have upgraded out of 1N but make Q the 10 and 6 is really good, no spade honour and it's excellent.



Yes, the auction 1N-2-2-3-3 gets you to the slam.

But aren't you likely to bid 3NT after partner bids both of your doubletons and you have decent stops in both of the other two suits? And if you do bid 3 there must be a danger of missing 3NT when this is right?
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#15 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-January-08, 10:46

View PostTramticket, on 2018-January-08, 10:24, said:

Yes, the auction 1N-2-2-3-3 gets you to the slam.

But aren't you likely to bid 3NT after partner bids both of your doubletons and you have decent stops in both of the other two suits? And if you do bid 3 there must be a danger of missing 3NT when this is right?


No, we're in a GF auction and partner can bid 3 if he can't bid 3N himself. I want to give partner the chance to evaluate things if he has a good hand, the only danger is that he's 1525 and bids a club slam now.
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#16 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-January-08, 12:14

I think we would bid the slam quite comfortably, so long as N finds the courage to raise diamonds - a second look at his hearts should help him take the plunge.



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#17 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-January-08, 12:30

View Postpescetom, on 2018-January-08, 12:14, said:

I think we would bid the slam quite comfortably, so long as N finds the courage to raise diamonds - a second look at his hearts should help him take the plunge.





Unfortunately partner's hand was:



And you now play 5 instead of 3N.
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#18 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2018-January-08, 13:00

Since 3C is GF( or at least we play it that way) then considering the possibility that partners hand may be a double suiter and looking at the Ace of Hearts ,the CQ ,the DA and SK I would have bid 3D allowing partner to describe his hand further..I shall ,on the given hand and the given bidding never bid a discouraging 3NT.
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#19 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2018-January-08, 13:00

Since 3C is GF( or at least we play it that way) then considering the possibility that partners hand may be a double suiter and looking at the Ace of Hearts ,the CQ ,the DA and SK I would have bid 3D allowing partner to describe his hand further..I shall ,on the given hand and the given bidding never bid a discouraging 3NT.
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#20 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-January-08, 13:35

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-January-08, 12:30, said:

Unfortunately partner's hand was:



And you now play 5 instead of 3N.


I don't think my partner would have rebid 2 with that hand.
I place him with something more like ATxxxx.
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