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Soloway

#1 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2018-January-01, 00:23



GIB's bid of 4 shows 2 or less spades, and a solid 6 card heart suit.

Luckily enough, 6 made..
Challenge event 14 is underway.

Feel free to send me a friend challenge of any format as often as you like. I'll always accept :)
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#2 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-January-01, 10:01

Too strong for a jump shift. The only question is 6S or 7S and maybe NT.
This strong is best just to make a normal bid and if partner shows extras make a move towards 7
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#3 User is offline   iandayre 

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Posted 2018-January-01, 15:14

Great point steve, exactly right. Unfortunately GIB has not been programmed to plan its second bid before making its first. It's obviously too strong for a NF 4S, 6S would be much better than 4H.

Better auction perhaps 1S-2H-2S-3S-4S-4NT-5H-5NT-6C-6D-7S ??
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#4 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2018-January-01, 18:52

View Poststeve2005, on 2018-January-01, 10:01, said:

Too strong for a jump shift.


Really? :rolleyes: What is the maximum you should have to make a strong jump shift?
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#5 User is offline   manudude03 

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Posted 2018-January-01, 19:14

I thought the balanced SJS was out with exactly 3 card support. It just leads to all sorts of problems. I remember a hand I posted here ages ago where GIB made a SJS with a balanced hand and 3 card support, and led to a 3NT which should go off when cold for 6M.
Wayne Somerville
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#6 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-January-01, 20:46

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#7 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-January-01, 20:47

View Postjohnu, on 2018-January-01, 18:52, said:

Really? :rolleyes: What is the maximum you should have to make a strong jump shift?

My Acol book suggests 19 as a max. (Precision bidding in Acol by E Crowhurst)
The auction here isn't a good example of the advantage of this method but say:
1-1 as opposed to 1-2
a 1N rebid tells you partner is 12-14 and if playing weak NT 15-17. if you don't jump shift on 20 are playing weak NT then you are way ahead.
Similarly if partner makes some other bid that shows extras you will be better off not jump shifting on 20.
If you jump shift it is much harder to tell if partner has above a normal opening making finding 7 harder and with 20 your almost always bidding 6 even if partner opened a ratty 12.
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#8 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2018-January-02, 00:22

There shouldn't be a max in general, just a max on this particular combination. On the original hand you want to set spades as trumps if no heart fit, and one can just see this is going to be impossible starting with 3h without bidding 4S which probably should be NF and limited. Might be different with different suit combinations where you can say spl rebid (showing the two suiter with fit) or different trump suits where you can show a fit below game.

I'd strongly prefer if GIB simply gave up 3 level SJS, playing 2/1, keep them for 1x-2y is OK.

On other hands, you have to judge whether you want to describe your own hand then give up captaincy, or set trumps then get into a cue bidding/key card sequence (in these cases SJS often best), or get partner to describe his, in which case not jumping is often better.
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#9 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2018-January-02, 14:53

View Poststeve2005, on 2018-January-01, 20:47, said:

My Acol book suggests 19 as a max. (Precision bidding in Acol by E Crowhurst)


The key word in your post is "Acol" which relatively few players play in other parts of the world.
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#10 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2018-January-02, 15:14

View PostStephen Tu, on 2018-January-02, 00:22, said:

There shouldn't be a max in general, just a max on this particular combination. On the original hand you want to set spades as trumps if no heart fit, and one can just see this is going to be impossible starting with 3h without bidding 4S which probably should be NF and limited. Might be different with different suit combinations where you can say spl rebid (showing the two suiter with fit) or different trump suits where you can show a fit below game.


It's going to be hard for North to bid the good 7 lacking K and I can't think of a reasonable way for South to show the singleton ace to North without some type of special agreement after North has shown length in hearts on the first response.

Actually, if North uses Jacoby 2NT instead of looking for a heart fit, South will show shortness in hearts. That would probably be a good bidding poll.

On this hand after the jump shift (since GIB plays GIB), I think North should rebid 4, in theory showing strong spade support and shortness in diamonds. It's a small lie, but 1000% better than showing an independent heart suit without primary spade support. After that, reaching 7 should be possible.
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#11 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-January-02, 15:51

View Postjohnu, on 2018-January-02, 14:53, said:

The key word in your post is "Acol" which relatively few players play in other parts of the world.

Irrelevant. Acol has more bids to show extras. The point is still valid for any system where you can show extra values in normal bidding.
So that rules out some version of 2/1 where you bid out your shape without showing extra values.
And of course I'm not suggesting Gib implement this.

On this hand Gib would have been better of jumping to KC at least there would be some chance to find 7 than wasting cpu time jump shifting.


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#12 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2018-January-03, 00:39

View Poststeve2005, on 2018-January-02, 15:51, said:

Irrelevant. Acol has more bids to show extras. The point is still valid for any system where you can show extra values in normal bidding.


This should be good. How would you show extras in your version of Acol?
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#13 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-January-03, 11:57

View Postjohnu, on 2018-January-03, 00:39, said:

This should be good. How would you show extras in your version of Acol?

In Acol rebidding NT shows 15-17 or for some 15-16
1-1M-2M shows extras either in terms of a strong NT or likely a singleton with a fit. Other bids that show extra likely show extras in all systems.
After a 2/1 depends on system, people playing Acol often are playing different systems but rebidding 2NT for most people shows extras.


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#14 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2018-January-04, 15:16

View Poststeve2005, on 2018-January-03, 11:57, said:

In Acol rebidding NT shows 15-17 or for some 15-16
1-1M-2M shows extras either in terms of a strong NT or likely a singleton with a fit. Other bids that show extra likely show extras in all systems.
After a 2/1 depends on system, people playing Acol often are playing different systems but rebidding 2NT for most people shows extras.


??? So what, strong NT'ers show ~15-17 by opening 1NT. I thought you said the Acol had more ways to show extras. Acol has many bids and sequences that are not forcing. That means there are fewer bids and sequences that are forcing. I don't see how that equates to more ways to show extras.
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#15 User is offline   manudude03 

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Posted 2018-January-04, 17:24

View Postjohnu, on 2018-January-04, 15:16, said:

??? So what, strong NT'ers show ~15-17 by opening 1NT. I thought you said the Acol had more ways to show extras. Acol has many bids and sequences that are not forcing. That means there are fewer bids and sequences that are forcing. I don't see how that equates to more ways to show extras.


The point is that failure to open 1NT says you have extras in one form or another, even if it just means you might have an unbalanced minimum. If you play strong NT, then when you have the auction 1x-1y-2y you still have to worry about the possibility of partner having a balanced minimum.
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#16 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2018-January-05, 22:47

View Postmanudude03, on 2018-January-04, 17:24, said:

The point is that failure to open 1NT says you have extras in one form or another, even if it just means you might have an unbalanced minimum. If you play strong NT, then when you have the auction 1x-1y-2y you still have to worry about the possibility of partner having a balanced minimum.


That's non sequitur.

Steve2005's premise was that strong jump shifts should be limited to 19 HCP(?), and that Acol had more ways to show extras. I strongly disagree with the first premise, and since Acol has so many non forcing limit sequences, I am waiting to be shown how Acol has more ways to show extras.
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