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Unintended call? EBU

#1 User is offline   VixTD 

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Posted 2017-December-27, 07:47

To those who claim that an unintended call cannot be made from a different section of the bidding box (I don't agree), consider the following that happened to me last week:

We had the unopposed auction:

1 - 2
2 - 3NT
3NT

When I made the second 3NT bid of the auction, I was musing over whether 3NT or 4 was likely to be the best contract on the deal, but whichever it was we were going to play in 3NT, so I absent-mindedly put the 3NT card on the table rather than the pass card.

Do you think this counts as an unintended call and should be ruled under law 25A, or do you think the TD should go through the rigmarole of applying law 27?
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#2 User is offline   jnichols 

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Posted 2017-December-27, 08:50

View PostVixTD, on 2017-December-27, 07:47, said:

To those who claim that an unintended call cannot be made from a different section of the bidding box (I don't agree), consider the following that happened to me last week:

We had the unopposed auction:

1 - 2
2 - 3NT
3NT

When I made the second 3NT bid of the auction, I was musing over whether 3NT or 4 was likely to be the best contract on the deal, but whichever it was we were going to play in 3NT, so I absent-mindedly put the 3NT card on the table rather than the pass card.

Do you think this counts as an unintended call and should be ruled under law 25A, or do you think the TD should go through the rigmarole of applying law 27?


Your intention was to play in 3NT and you selected the 3NT bid. Law 25A does not apply.

Absent-mindedly is not the same as unintended.
John S. Nichols - Director & Webmaster
Indianapolis Bridge Center
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#3 User is offline   weejonnie 

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Posted 2017-December-27, 09:08

Once you use the words 'absent-minded' it is clear that the call isn't unintended. To wit:-

"A change of call may be allowed because of a mechanical error or a slip of the tongue, but not because of a loss of concentration regarding the intent of the action."

Presumably when the TD goes through the 'rigmarole' of Law 27 you end up in 3NT anyway. If I were an opponent, however, I would accept the call, just in case your partner tries to read something into it.
The hardest director decisions inevitably are caused by the first failure to call at the appropriate time.
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After 85 years of bridge, the laws will finally define when dummy ceases to be dummy - at the end of play.
After a claim, play is now suspended, not ended. So dummy remains dummy, after a law 69 or during a law 70 ruling.
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#4 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-December-27, 09:46

LNichols and WeeJonnie seem to be right in law. Nowadays,however, self-damaging admissions (e.g. "absentmindedly") are rare and directors almost always rule "inadvertent". This law is unnecessary and it encourages and rewards rationalization and prevarication, like many other modern Bridge rules..
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#5 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-December-27, 09:54

View Postnige1, on 2017-December-27, 09:46, said:

LNichols and WeeJonnie seem to be right in law. Nowadays,however, self-damaging admissions (e.g. "absentmindedly") are rare and directors almost always rule "inadvertent". This law is unnecessary and it encourages and rewards rationalization and prevarication, like many other modern Bridge rules..

Are you ever going to stop beating that dead horse? Every law that involves intent and requires judging the truthfulness of the player rewards players who are good at convincing the TD. The Laws are not designed to prevent cheating, or even make it difficult. They're intended as the rules for honorable players. Cheating is handled at the organizational level, not here.

#6 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-December-27, 10:18

Knacker's yard :) Some laws need subjective judgement but why not drop or amend rules that encourage/reward infraction but add no discernible value. Under current rules, for example, the livelihood of a professional Bridge-player can depend on his willingness to "rationalize".
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#7 User is offline   VixTD 

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Posted 2017-December-27, 10:26

View Postweejonnie, on 2017-December-27, 09:08, said:

Once you use the words 'absent-minded' it is clear that the call isn't unintended.

I disagree. I wasn't intending to make a call at all when I bid 3NT, not even pass. I was just thinking to myself that we would be playing the contract in 3NT.
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#8 User is offline   RMB1 

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Posted 2017-December-27, 16:27

If there was no intended call then Law 25A1 does not apply.
Robin

"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in. Got any gin?" (DNA)
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#9 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2017-December-27, 19:39

So which law applies when a player makes a call at his turn when he didn't intend to make any call at all?
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#10 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2017-December-28, 03:57

View Postblackshoe, on 2017-December-27, 19:39, said:

So which law applies when a player makes a call at his turn when he didn't intend to make any call at all?

I would assume that his intention was to PASS?
(He is supposed to do something at his turn to call while the auction has not ended)
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#11 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-December-28, 04:26

View PostVixTD, on 2017-December-27, 10:26, said:

I disagree. I wasn't intending to make a call at all when I bid 3NT, not even pass. I was just thinking to myself that we would be playing the contract in 3NT.


You think with your mind, not with your hand. You are defining "intentional" incorrectly.
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#12 User is offline   StevenG 

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Posted 2017-December-28, 05:06

View PostVampyr, on 2017-December-28, 04:26, said:

You think with your mind, not with your hand. You are defining "intentional" incorrectly.

Why then does the law allow a "slip of the tongue"? There are equivalent situations with bidding boxes which cannot be corrected.
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#13 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-December-28, 08:54

View PostStevenG, on 2017-December-28, 05:06, said:

Why then does the law allow a "slip of the tongue"? There are equivalent situations with bidding boxes which cannot be corrected.

"slip of the tongue" is supposed to be the bridge equivalent of a malapropism or Freudian slip. You're thinking one thing, but somehow something else comes out of your mouth.

I'm not sure how you're really supposed to convince the TD of this, since there's such a fuzzy line between this and loss of concentration. Like when partner responds to your Blackwood, so you decide you're going to sign off at the cheapest level, but mistakenly pass instead of correcting to your suit.

#14 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-December-28, 09:29

View Postbarmar, on 2017-December-28, 08:54, said:

"slip of the tongue" is supposed to be the bridge equivalent of a malapropism or Freudian slip. You're thinking one thing, but somehow something else comes out of your mouth.

I'm not sure how you're really supposed to convince the TD of this, since there's such a fuzzy line between this and loss of concentration. Like when partner responds to your Blackwood, so you decide you're going to sign off at the cheapest level, but mistakenly pass instead of correcting to your suit.


Well, that particular error is very obviously a mental lapse.
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#15 User is offline   RMB1 

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Posted 2017-December-28, 11:20

View Postblackshoe, on 2017-December-27, 19:39, said:

So which law applies when a player makes a call at his turn when he didn't intend to make any call at all?

The law or regulation that defines when a call is made.

To others at the table VixTD's 3NT bid would appear to be the call at that turn and this call is made, according to EBU bidding box regulations.
Robin

"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in. Got any gin?" (DNA)
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#16 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2017-December-28, 15:11

View Postpran, on 2017-December-28, 03:57, said:

I would assume that his intention was to PASS?
(He is supposed to do something at his turn to call while the auction has not ended)

He said he was still considering his options. Apparently his hand reached out and put a bid on the table of its own accord. B-)

The argument seems to be that he can't change this call under 25A because there is no intended call to which to change it. Not sure I buy that argument. :blink:
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#17 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2017-December-29, 16:04

View Postblackshoe, on 2017-December-28, 15:11, said:

He said he was still considering his options. Apparently his hand reached out and put a bid on the table of its own accord. B-)

The argument seems to be that he can't change this call under 25A because there is no intended call to which to change it. Not sure I buy that argument. :blink:

It is what the law says if you read it carefully.
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#18 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2017-December-29, 16:18

View Postgordontd, on 2017-December-29, 16:04, said:

It is what the law says if you read it carefully.

Okay. So which law applies to the 3NT bid which magically appeared on the table? 25B? B-)
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#19 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2017-December-30, 02:25

View Postblackshoe, on 2017-December-29, 16:18, said:

Okay. So which law applies to the 3NT bid which magically appeared on the table? 25B? B-)

No , there was no substituted call so 25B does not apply. It seems like a routine L27 to me.

In this instance it won’t matter much unless he would have liked to change it to 4H.
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#20 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2017-December-30, 05:04

View Postgordontd, on 2017-December-30, 02:25, said:

No , there was no substituted call so 25B does not apply. It seems like a routine L27 to me.

In this instance it won’t matter much unless he would have liked to change it to 4H.

Sure it is Law 27.
But it may change to Law 25A if the offender (during the application of Law 27) expresses that his intention was to PASS.
And nothing prevents him from changing his insufficient 3NT bid to PASS, which in fact here (probably) satisfies the conditions for being a comparable call!
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