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Claim with a defective trick EBU

#1 User is offline   VixTD 

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Posted 2017-December-27, 07:39

A recent graduate of a club TD course asked about a problem that arose in his club. Declarer in 3NT had followed at trick six to LHO's lead of a small club with the king from dummy, winning the trick, and then called for the queen, winning the following trick. The problem was that he hadn't played to trick six from his own hand, so when he later claimed the last three tricks, it was found that everyone else had only two cards left.

Had this been discovered before the claim, declarer could have chosen one of his last three cards to contribute to the defective trick under law 67B (assuming all would be legal plays to that trick). As it was discovered after the claim had taken place, can offender still choose, or does the last card that he would have played (according to the claim statement) become the one played to the defective trick? What if offender's claim statement is not clear on the matter? I presume the TD rules as if the least advantageous card is contributed.

I doubt it would make any difference in this case, but it could if declarer claimed with e.g. the two last trumps and a loser, which he concedes.
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#2 User is offline   weejonnie 

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Posted 2017-December-27, 08:14

I don't think that the TD (or opponents) has the right to insist that the least favourable card is selected. Law 67B just requires the declarer to show one card and then add it to the trick (with a revoke of course)

1. When the offender has failed to play a card to the defective trick, the Director shall require him forthwith to expose a card face-up in front of him and then place it appropriately among his played cards (this card does not affect ownership of the trick); etc.

Forthwith means : (especially in official use) immediately; without delay.

So this must be done before the Director can deal with the claim. Of course the requirement may very well affect the consequences of the claim statement - in which case the TD will resolve and doubtful points against the claimer (Law 70)

In the case suggested (two trumps + a loser) then the loser will be added to the defective trick (unless declarer is an idiot!), one trump trick will be allocated to the defence as per law 67 calling on law 64A2 (more, in the form of an adjusted score, if Law 64C comes into play of course - and I THINK it does since the revoke is established not only by playing to the next trick after the defective one but also making a claim) and the claimer is protected from conceding any more tricks as you can't concede a trick that can't be lost by any play of the cards. (Law 71) - I assume the Director has to apply this law once he becomes aware of the situation.
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After 85 years of bridge, the laws will finally define when dummy ceases to be dummy - at the end of play.
After a claim, play is now suspended, not ended. So dummy remains dummy, after a law 69 or during a law 70 ruling.
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#3 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-December-27, 09:58

View Postweejonnie, on 2017-December-27, 08:14, said:

In the case suggested (two trumps + a loser) then the loser will be added to the defective trick

What trumps? The contract in the OP is 3NT.

#4 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2017-December-27, 10:33

it is not in evidence that there was a revoke, either.
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#5 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2017-December-27, 10:57

View Postblackshoe, on 2017-December-27, 10:33, said:

it is not in evidence that there was a revoke, either.

I assume that the defective trick is not the one currently in progress at the time of the claim, so then:

Law 67B said:

When the Director determines that there has been a defective trick (from the fact that one player has too few or too many cards in his hand, and a correspondingly incorrect number of played cards); both sides having played to the next trick, he proceeds as follows:
1. When the offender has failed to play a card to the defective trick, the Director shall require him forthwith to expose a card face-up in front of him and then place it appropriately among his played cards (this card does not affect ownership of the trick); if
(a) the offender has a card of the suit led to the defective trick; he must choose such a card to place among his played cards. He is deemed to have revoked on the defective trick and is subject to the loss of one trick transferred in accordance with Law 64A2.
(b) the offender has no card of the suit led to the defective trick; he chooses any card to place among his played cards. He is deemed to have revoked on the defective trick and is subject to the loss of one trick transferred in accordance with Law 64A2.
(my emphasis in red)
So yes, there was indeed a revoke.

(PS.: The fact that there is a claim is irrelevant for the ruling)
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#6 User is offline   axman 

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Posted 2017-December-27, 11:53

View PostVixTD, on 2017-December-27, 07:39, said:

A recent graduate of a club TD course asked about a problem that arose in his club. Declarer in 3NT had followed at trick six to LHO's lead of a small club with the king from dummy, winning the trick, and then called for the queen, winning the following trick. The problem was that he hadn't played to trick six from his own hand, so when he later claimed the last three tricks, it was found that everyone else had only two cards left.

Had this been discovered before the claim, declarer could have chosen one of his last three cards to contribute to the defective trick under law 67B (assuming all would be legal plays to that trick). As it was discovered after the claim had taken place, can offender still choose, or does the last card that he would have played (according to the claim statement) become the one played to the defective trick? What if offender's claim statement is not clear on the matter? I presume the TD rules as if the least advantageous card is contributed.

I doubt it would make any difference in this case, but it could if declarer claimed with e.g. the two last trumps and a loser, which he concedes.

The effect of a claim is to fix the play of the remaining cards. In this case the claim occurred prior to identifying the presence of a defective trick and thus must be adjudicated first in order to determine the leftover card. As such, the leftover card from the (adjudicated) claim is contributed to the defective trick in accordance with L67.
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#7 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2017-December-27, 14:30

View Postaxman, on 2017-December-27, 11:53, said:

The effect of a claim is to fix the play of the remaining cards. In this case the claim occurred prior to identifying the presence of a defective trick and thus must be adjudicated first in order to determine the leftover card. As such, the leftover card from the (adjudicated) claim is contributed to the defective trick in accordance with L67.

The only important condition is that both sides have played to the trick following the trick that eventually is found to be defective.
Even a circumstance that one player (alone) still holds a card after all 13 tricks have been played to completion doesn't change the fact that the Director shall apply Law 67 when that "surplus" card could belong to a trick earlier than trick 13.
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#8 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-December-27, 17:43

View Postpran, on 2017-December-27, 10:57, said:

I assume that the defective trick is not the one currently in progress at the time of the claim, so then:
(my emphasis in red)
So yes, there was indeed a revoke.

(PS.: The fact that there is a claim is irrelevant for the ruling)

Interesting. I've seen people not play to a trick and it later revealed. But have never had it ruled a revoke.
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#9 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2017-December-27, 19:37

View Postpran, on 2017-December-27, 10:57, said:

So yes, there was indeed a revoke.

(PS.: The fact that there is a claim is irrelevant for the ruling)

Law 67B says one trick is transferred. So be it. But "deemed to have revoked" is not "did revoke", whatever rectification the law requires.

I do agree that the claim is irrelevant to this ruling. However, the director still has to rule on the validity of the claim.
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#10 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2017-December-28, 04:16

View Postblackshoe, on 2017-December-27, 19:37, said:

Law 67B says one trick is transferred. So be it. But "deemed to have revoked" is not "did revoke", whatever rectification the law requires.

I do agree that the claim is irrelevant to this ruling. However, the director still has to rule on the validity of the claim.

"Deemed to have revoked" to me means that the Director rules "the player did (indeed) revoke".

More specifically

Law 61A said:

Definition of Revoke
Failure to follow suit in accordance with Law 44 or failure to lead or play, when able, a card or suit required by law or specified by an opponent when exercising an option in rectification of an irregularity, constitutes a revoke. (When unable to comply see Law 59.)

(Law 67B does not say that one trick is transferred [unconditionally], it explicitly refers to Law 64A2 for such transfer)
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#11 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2017-December-28, 04:19

View Poststeve2005, on 2017-December-27, 17:43, said:

Interesting. I've seen people not play to a trick and it later revealed. But have never had it ruled a revoke.

Ignorance of the Laws is the most important problem with (acting) Tournament Directors.
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#12 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-December-28, 08:58

View Postpran, on 2017-December-28, 04:16, said:

"Deemed to have revoked" to me means that the Director rules "the player did (indeed) revoke".

He might not actually have revoked, but "deem" means that for all intents and purposes we treat it as if he had. So the distinction between "deem" and "did" is irrelevant for purposes of applying the Laws.

#13 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-December-28, 09:10

View Postbarmar, on 2017-December-28, 08:58, said:

He might not actually have revoked, but "deem" means that for all intents and purposes we treat it as if he had. So the distinction between "deem" and "did" is irrelevant for purposes of applying the Laws.


How can this be? If declarer can put a card into the trick that was the suit led, then he will not have revoked.
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#14 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2017-December-28, 10:44

View Postbarmar, on 2017-December-28, 08:58, said:

He might not actually have revoked, but "deem" means that for all intents and purposes we treat it as if he had. So the distinction between "deem" and "did" is irrelevant for purposes of applying the Laws.

View PostVampyr, on 2017-December-28, 09:10, said:

How can this be? If declarer can put a card into the trick that was the suit led, then he will not have revoked.

Read Law 61 again (and make sure you fully understand it)!

The player failed to play his card to the trick where he was required by law to play it. That is an exact match to the definition of a revoke.

The fact that he at a later time put his card into the trick in question does not alter his original action (or lacking action) from being a revoke.

"deem" simply emphasizes the fact that the Director shall so rule.
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#15 User is offline   axman 

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Posted 2017-December-28, 13:58

View Postpran, on 2017-December-28, 10:44, said:

Read Law 61 again (and make sure you fully understand it)!

The player failed to play his card to the trick where he was required by law to play it. That is an exact match to the definition of a revoke.

The fact that he at a later time put his card into the trick in question does not alter his original action (or lacking action) from being a revoke.

"deem" simply emphasizes the fact that the Director shall so rule.


It probably is not germane, but when there is a left over card at the end of play because it was not contributed to one of the tricks, for the trick missing a card (at the time the trick was created) the player’s hand either contained a card that would follow suit or did not. And, if it did not have a card that would follow suit at the time- had he played to the trick it would not have been a revoke. Then, under what justification (other than a decrepit law) should he be subject to paying a revoke penalty when the defective trick is corrected?
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#16 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2017-December-28, 15:08

View Postaxman, on 2017-December-28, 13:58, said:

It probably is not germane, but when there is a left over card at the end of play because it was not contributed to one of the tricks, for the trick missing a card (at the time the trick was created) the player’s hand either contained a card that would follow suit or did not. And, if it did not have a card that would follow suit at the time- had he played to the trick it would not have been a revoke. Then, under what justification (other than a decrepit law) should he be subject to paying a revoke penalty when the defective trick is corrected?

We don't need any other justification than the law. Which I would not call "decrepit" btw, though as far as I know it's been around for a while.
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#17 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2017-December-29, 01:35

View Postaxman, on 2017-December-28, 13:58, said:

It probably is not germane, but when there is a left over card at the end of play because it was not contributed to one of the tricks, for the trick missing a card (at the time the trick was created) the player’s hand either contained a card that would follow suit or did not. And, if it did not have a card that would follow suit at the time- had he played to the trick it would not have been a revoke. Then, under what justification (other than a decrepit law) should he be subject to paying a revoke penalty when the defective trick is corrected?

There is a very simple (and good) reason why Laws 61 and 67 prescribes this rectification i.e. ruling that the player has revoked with all its consequences:

He has played a significant part of the board with one extra card in his hand. The effect of this could for instance be that he has avoided being squeezed or end-played. In general he may have gained a trick becaujse of his irregularity.

Law 61 doesn't bother about examining such possibilities but simply states that he has revoked - period.
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#18 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-December-29, 09:52

View Postpran, on 2017-December-28, 10:44, said:

The player failed to play his card to the trick where he was required by law to play it. That is an exact match to the definition of a revoke.

The definition of a revoke is either a failure to follow suit when able, or a failure to play a required card (e.g. a penalty card, or a specific suit when declarer exercises the option to require a suit lead). Although it's always required to play some card in each trick, I believe this clause of the law refers to a specific card/suit, not just any card.

This is why the Law about defective tricks uses the word "deemed" -- whether or not the offender actually revoked according to Law 61, we act as if he had.

#19 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2017-December-29, 18:52

View Postbarmar, on 2017-December-29, 09:52, said:

The definition of a revoke is either a failure to follow suit when able, or a failure to play a required card (e.g. a penalty card, or a specific suit when declarer exercises the option to require a suit lead). Although it's always required to play some card in each trick, I believe this clause of the law refers to a specific card/suit, not just any card.

This is why the Law about defective tricks uses the word "deemed" -- whether or not the offender actually revoked according to Law 61, we act as if he had.

This distinction is immaterial, the result is the same whichever way you look at the situation.

But Each player is required by Law (44) to play a card at his turn to play, and law 61 doesn't limit "card or suit required by law" to rectification situations only.

So the use of the word "deemed" in Law 67 does IMHO not imply that the failure to play a card to a trick was not a revoke.
I challenge those who argue that it does to come up with an alternative text for the situation where it indeed is a revoke? Without any such alternative text I argue that the word "deem" means just that.

(Not that it makes any real difference.)
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#20 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2017-December-30, 09:52

View Postpran, on 2017-December-29, 18:52, said:

This distinction is immaterial…

You should have stopped right there B-).
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