BBO Discussion Forums: A puzzle - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

A puzzle

#21 User is offline   m1cha 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 388
  • Joined: 2014-February-23
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Germany

Posted 2017-December-25, 21:49

View PostVampyr, on 2017-December-25, 21:35, said:

"Any denomination" does not work, since major and minor games require different numbers of tricks.

True but I'm still thinking if it matters. Anyway, I have deleted my former post because I came to the conclusion that the OP probably doesn't imply what I thought it would imply.
0

#22 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,018
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2017-December-25, 22:34

View Postm1cha, on 2017-December-25, 21:49, said:

True but I'm still thinking if it matters. Anyway, I have deleted my former post because I came to the conclusion that the OP probably doesn't imply what I thought it would imply.


I think it kinda does, because if you can make 11 tricks in a trump contract, there obviously isn't a unique answer.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#23 User is offline   lamford 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,056
  • Joined: 2007-October-15

Posted 2017-December-26, 07:40

View Postnullve, on 2017-December-24, 04:06, said:

When the last 2 is played, the remaining players have to discard from suits that

* only they have left (or else the 2 in that suit could not have been a winner)
* they've already cashed the 2 in (which is only possible after the other players have shown out).

So each opponent had to get in on a non-2 at some point to be able to cash a 2. That's at least 4 tricks for the defenders, so the only possible game contract is 3N=.

My previous post shows that such a 3N= hand can be constructed, so the solution is 0 overtricks (in 3N).

This is a good answer. 4M= and 3NT= are the only possible contracts. The problem with 4 major seems to be that the defence have to make one deuce by ruffing and one length trick, but declarer must have won a length trick with a deuce in two other suits so the partner of the defender winning the length trick with the deuce cannot have any suit to discard! So I think 3NT= is the only solution.
'When I write a Law,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less.'
1

#24 User is offline   Lovera 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,115
  • Joined: 2014-January-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bari (ITALIA)
  • Interests:I'm also on YOUTUBE with a channel of music songs .

Posted 2017-December-26, 08:27

View Postlamford, on 2017-December-26, 07:40, said:

This is a good answer. 4M= and 3NT= are the only possible contracts. The problem with 4 major seems to be that the defence have to make one deuce by ruffing and one length trick, but declarer must have won a length trick with a deuce in two other suits so the partner of the defender winning the length trick with the deuce cannot have any suit to discard! So I think 3NT= is the only solution.

My solution allows an overtick cutting comunication in club and unblocking the major suits (3+3+2+2=10). Is it valid ?
0

#25 User is offline   lamford 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,056
  • Joined: 2007-October-15

Posted 2017-December-26, 09:38

View PostLovera, on 2017-December-26, 08:27, said:

My solution allows an overtick cutting comunication in club and unblocking the major suits (3+3+2+2=10). Is it valid ?

I don't think it does unless you can give an order of play.
'When I write a Law,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less.'
0

#26 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,177
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2017-December-26, 11:16

For Vampyr: You can adjust the earlier construction so that defenders can't defeat the contract but declarer still has to give up overtricks so that opponents can win their deuces. The play is essentially the same as before: west leads a black card and declarer cashes 9 tricks in the black suits, so that red cards can be unblocked.

0

#27 User is offline   Lovera 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,115
  • Joined: 2014-January-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bari (ITALIA)
  • Interests:I'm also on YOUTUBE with a channel of music songs .

Posted 2017-December-26, 14:57

View Postlamford, on 2017-December-26, 09:38, said:

I don't think it does unless you can give an order of play.

Opening lead is Q to K, A and K in dummy, little to 10 for E returning club for A in S then little for W, etc...
0

#28 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,177
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2017-December-26, 17:15

View Postbarmar, on 2017-December-25, 02:44, said:

My puzzle is why this can't happen online?
With a predealt board and compliant human players?
0

#29 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,018
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2017-December-26, 22:24

View Postnige1, on 2017-December-26, 17:15, said:

With a predealt board and compliant human players?


It's not a very interesting puzzle if it involves players cooperating with the other side. The declarer play and defence should be plausible.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#30 User is offline   broze 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 891
  • Joined: 2011-March-08
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:UK

Posted 2017-December-27, 10:59

View PostVampyr, on 2017-December-26, 22:24, said:

It's not a very interesting puzzle if it involves players cooperating with the other side. The declarer play and defence should be plausible.


I disagree. If a puzzle is any good, any conditions should be stated in it.
'In an infinite universe, the one thing sentient life cannot afford to have is a sense of proportion.' - Douglas Adams
0

#31 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,177
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2017-December-27, 11:20

View PostLovera, on 2017-December-24, 08:25, said:

I had thought this one for +1 trick more.

View PostLovera, on 2017-December-26, 14:57, said:

Opening lead is Q to K, A and K in dummy, little to 10 for E returning club for A in S then little for W, etc...
How can that line work? :)
Instead, East can take 2 tricks and West can take 2 tricks, while the other players unblock major pips; so that, eventually, all 4 deuces win and declarer makes 9 tricks. But if 4 deuces win tricks, how does declarer make an overtrick?

In order to cash his 2, East must take the previous trick. Similarly West must win the previous trick, to cash his 2. Hence each defender takes two tricks. That is 4 defensive tricks :(
1

#32 User is offline   Lovera 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,115
  • Joined: 2014-January-12
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bari (ITALIA)
  • Interests:I'm also on YOUTUBE with a channel of music songs .

Posted 2017-December-27, 11:55

View Postnige1, on 2017-December-27, 11:20, said:

How that line work? :(
Instead, East can take 2 tricks and West can take 2 tricks, while the other players unblock major pips; so that all 4 deuces win. But if 4 deuces win tricks, how does declarer make an overtrick.

Because E has the heart suit that needs to be unblocked before that be lead a club against the A avoiding so to estabilish winners in suit. The subsequent play is reversed on W that has no more clubs and every return allows to rescue remaining winners. It is to be noted that the heart suit cannot be whole played otherwise W can unblock the Q of spade on those cards.
0

#33 User is offline   nige1 

  • 5-level belongs to me
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,177
  • Joined: 2004-August-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Glasgow Scotland
  • Interests:Poems Computers

Posted 2017-December-28, 00:04

View PostVampyr, on 2017-December-26, 22:24, said:

It's not a very interesting puzzle if it involves players cooperating with the other side. The declarer play and defence should be plausible.
Puzzles are an art-form. Their beauty lies in the eye of would-be solvers, for some of whom, economy of presentation is a relevant aesthetic.
0

#34 User is offline   lamford 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,056
  • Joined: 2007-October-15

Posted 2017-December-31, 06:34

View Postnige1, on 2017-December-28, 00:04, said:

Puzzles are an art-form. Their beauty lies in the eye of would-be solvers, for some of whom, economy of presentation is a relevant aesthetic.

Indeed. Vampyr would presumably decry a help-mate in chess ...
'When I write a Law,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less.'
0

Share this topic:


  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users