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What does "discard" mean? RR gets lucky

#21 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-December-29, 09:41

This just prompted a question in my mind: If declarer designates a card from dummy by saying something like "ruff it" or "ruff low", is dummy "participating in the play" by playing a trump? This type of incomplete designation isn't mentioned at all in Law 46B. It sounds like declarer has forgotten what trump is, and this allows him to get dummy to remind him.

I wish I had the creativity of Lamford so I could have had SB come up with this issue.

#22 User is offline   weejonnie 

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Posted 2017-December-29, 12:45

Well if 46B5 applies

5. If declarer indicates a play without designating either a suit or a rank (as by saying ‘play anything’ or words of like meaning) either defender may designate the play from dummy.

If declarer says "trump it" then I think that dummy has to play the lowest of the trump suit in dummy since declarer can be deemed to know the contract - which means he is deemed to know what a trump is since a trump is defined as : each card of the denomination named in a suit contract.

If he says "Win it" then dummy has to play a trump. (We have already been to the situation of what does this mean when it is not knowm by declarer which is the actual lowest card that will win the trick).

However: the word 'ruff' does not appear in the laws.

Dummy is now allowed to ensure that declarer follows suit, but of course this is not quite the position.
The hardest director decisions inevitably are caused by the first failure to call at the appropriate time.
"Funny hand: both sides can make 4 hearts - VM"
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#23 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2017-December-29, 18:16

View Postbarmar, on 2017-December-27, 09:40, said:

He can be informed that the contract is 4, but not that hearts are trumps?

"Declarer may enquire at his turn to play from dummy or from his own hand." Footnote 11 to Law 41C. No, the Rabbit cannot even be told that he is declarer and must work that out for himself. He will have to be told by someone that the lead is in dummy at trick 10, but not what the previous trick was or how he came to be in dummy.
'When I write a Law,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'
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#24 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2017-December-29, 18:18

View Postbarmar, on 2017-December-29, 09:41, said:

This just prompted a question in my mind: If declarer designates a card from dummy by saying something like "ruff it" or "ruff low", is dummy "participating in the play" by playing a trump? This type of incomplete designation isn't mentioned at all in Law 46B. It sounds like declarer has forgotten what trump is, and this allows him to get dummy to remind him.

I wish I had the creativity of Lamford so I could have had SB come up with this issue.

Is that a challenge for another thread?
'When I write a Law,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'
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#25 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-December-31, 11:44

View Postlamford, on 2017-December-29, 18:18, said:

Is that a challenge for another thread?

If I said no would it stop you? :)

#26 User is offline   RMB1 

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Posted 2017-December-31, 13:25

View Postbarmar, on 2017-December-31, 11:44, said:

If I said no would it stop you? :)

We all know the answer is no.
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#27 User is offline   mikestar13 

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Posted 2018-January-01, 15:18

View Postbarmar, on 2017-December-27, 09:40, said:

He can be informed that the contract is 4, but not that hearts are trumps?


If the laws say or imply that, it's plain crazy--if the contract is 4, there is no other possibility than hearts being trumps.
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#28 User is offline   VixTD 

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Posted 2018-January-03, 07:48

View Postmikestar13, on 2018-January-01, 15:18, said:

View Postbarmar, on 2017-December-27, 09:40, said:

He can be informed that the contract is 4, but not that hearts are trumps?

If the laws say or imply that, it's plain crazy--if the contract is 4, there is no other possibility than hearts being trumps.

If he asks what the contract is he can be told, by dummy, but dummy may not of his own volition remind declarer what the contract is.
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#29 User is offline   weejonnie 

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Posted 2018-January-03, 08:57

View PostVixTD, on 2018-January-03, 07:48, said:

If he asks what the contract is he can be told, by dummy, but dummy may not of his own volition remind declarer what the contract is.

He can do so if the Director is present (presumably) but not otherwise

LAW 42 - DUMMY’S RIGHTS
A. Absolute Rights

1. Dummy is entitled to give information, in the Director’s presence, as to fact or law.

(Although I suspect this was only intended to be when the director was called when attention was drawn to an irregularity)

(43A1c) Dummy must not participate in the play, nor may he communicate anything about the play to declarer.

(41C in part) ... After it is too late to have previous calls restated (see B), declarer or either defender, at his own turn to play, is entitled to be informed as to what the contract is and whether, but not by whom, it was doubled or redoubled. << this is the law that allows declarer to ask what is the contract. There is nothing in it that says he must be told what trumps are.>>

It doesn't say that he must ask for the information to be provided but I would have thought that (43A1c) above precludes dummy from telling him. ((HH repeatedly reminds RR what the contract is when he is playing against him)
The hardest director decisions inevitably are caused by the first failure to call at the appropriate time.
"Funny hand: both sides can make 4 hearts - VM"
No one ever becomes a TD because of the money. They do it because they want to help bridge flourish in their club, region or nation.
Getting rid of one rude player might result in the arrival of four pleasant ones.
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#30 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2018-January-03, 09:29

View Postweejonnie, on 2018-January-03, 08:57, said:

He can do so if the Director is present (presumably) but not otherwise

LAW 42 - DUMMY’S RIGHTS
A. Absolute Rights

1. Dummy is entitled to give information, in the Director’s presence, as to fact or law.

(Although I suspect this was only intended to be when the director was called when attention was drawn to an irregularity)

I've always understood it to mean that when the director is trying to gather facts, dummy is allowed to speak up.

Quote

(43A1c) Dummy must not participate in the play, nor may he communicate anything about the play to declarer.

(41C in part) ... After it is too late to have previous calls restated (see B), declarer or either defender, at his own turn to play, is entitled to be informed as to what the contract is and whether, but not by whom, it was doubled or redoubled. << this is the law that allows declarer to ask what is the contract. There is nothing in it that says he must be told what trumps are.>>

"What's trumps?"
"Sorry, can't tell you."
"What's the contract?"
"4 hearts"
"But you can't tell me what suit is trumps?"
"Nope"
"Who's on first base?"
"Yes"

#31 User is offline   weejonnie 

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Posted 2018-January-03, 09:36

View Postbarmar, on 2018-January-03, 09:29, said:

I've always understood it to mean that when the director is trying to gather facts, dummy is allowed to speak up.

"What's trumps?"
"Sorry, can't tell you."
"What's the contract?"
"4 hearts"
"But you can't tell me what suit is trumps?"
"Nope"
"Who's on first base?"
"Yes"


You may laugh - but that very same discussion (verbatim) is quoted in Julian Pottage's "Why you continue to lose at Bridge"

Mrs G: What are Trumps?
Mr S: I don't think you can ask that question.
Mr UE: True but my partner CAN ask what the contract is?
Mr S (nodding) : 7
The hardest director decisions inevitably are caused by the first failure to call at the appropriate time.
"Funny hand: both sides can make 4 hearts - VM"
No one ever becomes a TD because of the money. They do it because they want to help bridge flourish in their club, region or nation.
Getting rid of one rude player might result in the arrival of four pleasant ones.
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#32 User is offline   BudH 

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Posted 2018-January-05, 08:39

Note the definition of discard is important for defenders (in ACBL play) who use odd-even or Lavinthal on each defender’s first “discard”. If a defender leads a singleton to partner’s ace and trumps the return, is that his “first discard”?
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#33 User is online   pran 

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Posted 2018-January-05, 09:07

View PostBudH, on 2018-January-05, 08:39, said:

Note the definition of discard is important for defenders (in ACBL play) who use odd-even or Lavinthal on each defender’s first “discard”. If a defender leads a singleton to partner’s ace and trumps the return, is that his “first discard”?

This discussion reminds me of an episode from many years ago:

South was in a 4 contract after North had shown 4-4-4-1 with singleton Clubs.

For various reasons (unimportant here) I (West) led a club to partner's Ace, and he returned another high club. South followed suit, so did I, and declarer said: "Discard a heart"!

South now went into a tank which seemed to last forever, everybody waited patiently, but then suddenly he looked at the table and exclaimed: "Why have you all marked that trick as won by me"?

He must have had a temporary lapse and thought that he was playing in NT or something, but play eventually continued after we all had had our laughs.

(And South was a very experienced player!)
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#34 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2018-January-05, 10:00

View PostBudH, on 2018-January-05, 08:39, said:

Note the definition of discard is important for defenders (in ACBL play) who use odd-even or Lavinthal on each defender’s first “discard”. If a defender leads a singleton to partner’s ace and trumps the return, is that his “first discard”?

According to the Bridge World Dictionary, a discard is a plain-suit card other than the suit led, and a plain suit is a suit other than trumps. So when describing your discard system, you're explaining the meaning of cards when neither follow suit nor ruff.

The only time "discard" might mean "ruff" is when declarer is confused and uses that verb while also naming the trump suit. This is just a mistake, it doesn't change the definition.

If it became a widespread practice, the accepted definition of the word might change in time. In that case, we might also change how we describe defensive carding. Or not -- we live with ambiguity in the way people use the phrase "cue bid" (despite its widespread use for control bids, the BW Dictionary only lists the meaning where you bid an opponent's suit -- they're apparently prescriptivists rather than descriptivists).

#35 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2018-January-05, 11:32

View PostBudH, on 2018-January-05, 08:39, said:

Note the definition of discard is important for defenders (in ACBL play) who use odd-even or Lavinthal on each defender’s first “discard”. If a defender leads a singleton to partner’s ace and trumps the return, is that his “first discard”?

No.
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#36 User is offline   BudH 

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Posted 2018-January-05, 20:20

View Postblackshoe, on 2018-January-05, 11:32, said:

No.


Correct - I had to directly ask ACBL about this 20 years ago. It is not at all well publicized.
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#37 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2018-January-05, 23:06

It's in my dictionary: "(in bridge, whist, and similar card games) play (a card that is neither of the suit led nor a trump), when one is unable to follow suit."
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