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bidding a long suit

#21 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-December-21, 09:28

View PostZelandakh, on 2017-December-21, 07:06, said:

You are joking, right? How many times have you opened a 10 card suit at a low level and not seen anything but green from the opps?

If you do open 2, what is your plan if it goes something like 2 - (3) - P - (6), where partner's pass showed values? Are you going to bid 7 in front of partner? Or make a forcing pass? If you FP and partner doubles, are you feeling comfortable about sitting?

I think Vampyr has a good case for a 3NT or 4 opening if that is on our card. Failing that, there are good arguments for any number of hearts with the possible exceptions of 2, 3 and 7. Hands like this tend to be much more about tactical opportunity than any scientific method. Indeed there is a good argument for varying one's way of handling them, sometimes preempting high, sometimes using a slam-try opening and sometimes walking the dog. I could be wrong but I doubt anyone here could definitively say that a particular approach was absolutely the best, even Fred, Mike or Justin.

This forum is for intermediates and advanced and I do not pose to be an advanced one.The OP has just asked the way to bid this hand and accordingly I have given my system of bidding.I had strictly mentioned that this is the way the bidding will go IF (and this is a big IF)the opponent are silent.However If the opponents intervene then then I do not mind forgetting this board or many more like this where opponents put the S ystem to a ditch.FULL STOP.
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#22 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2017-December-21, 09:42

View Postportia2, on 2017-December-21, 01:15, said:

Faute de mieux, could you not open 2, planning to rebid 4?

This is a matter of the rules, that are in place, sometimes it will be allowed,
sometimes not.
You have certainly a 10 trick hand, i.e. a gameforcing hand, on the other hand, it
is low on HCP, for that matter it is also pretty low on defence.

The suggested seq.

2C - 2D
4H - 6H

works, ... although the diamond void was never shown, make it a spade void, you are off
2 cashing Aces, they still need to collect them, which may or may not be an easy task.

There are system, that show you strong 1-suited hands, Namyats (3NT / 4C / 4D opening)
to show something like this,... but you have a 10 card suit, and a void, ...,
If you open on the 4 level, it will be hard for partner to go on, the given partner hand wont.
If you cant stand a missed slam go for it, but than refrain from asking, how to avoid reaching
the slam with 2 missing cashing Aces.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#23 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-December-21, 10:07

View Postportia2, on 2017-December-20, 07:43, said:

What's the best way to bid this hand?N is dealer. scoring mp vul: none

We play a convention popular in the UK:
3N = ART 7+ M 8-10 Playing tricks. Then
- 4 asks opener to transfer to his M.
- 4 is a slam try.
But it might not help us here.
South is unlikely to make a try but if he does, then the slam should be reached.

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#24 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2017-December-21, 10:13

View Postmaartenxq, on 2017-December-21, 08:46, said:

Manifold dutch champion Kees Tammens once told me: you cannot ask me how tobid 9 card suits. I suppose this is also true for 1o card suits.
What about
2 - 2
4 - 6 ?

Maarten Baltussen

I would open 6direct I treat hands like this as a goulash deal.
My philosophy is not what I can make,but what the opponents can make.
Opening 6immediately puts maximum pressure on the opponents
right at the start.
It's not a sin to play bridge,but it's a crime if you play it badly(!) ;)
"It is not enough to be a good player,you must also play well"
- Dr Tarrasch(1862-1934)German Chess Grandmaster
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#25 User is offline   Joe_Old 

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Posted 2017-December-21, 10:36

Science is hard to come by when bidding a 10 card suit.

However, one strategy that works well in goulash games is to open this hand 1, then wait to see what everyone else bids. If your partner responds , at whatever level, bid whatever Blackwood variation that you play, and if partner shows an Ace, assume that it is in his suit and bid slam. The point is that you can draw inferences from the bidding (and with 29 HCPs and only three suits in the picture there will be bidding). The downside is that the opponents will have time to get into the auction and may outbid you, or they may raise the level so that a Blackwood investigation is impossible. At least you will get some indication from partner, either by a bid or even by passing, whether you should bid on to a making slam or to sacrifice.

The other option is to open 4 or more . Again, with out of the picture and 29 HCPs outstanding if you open at the 4 level there will likely be more bidding, but your partner will be the one who has to decide whether to pass, double or bid on and s/he won't expect 10. Therefore, if I'm not opening 1 I'm taking my full pre-emptive shot with 6.
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#26 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-December-21, 11:20

View Postgszes, on 2017-December-21, 07:13, said:

I suggest opening 4n

This is a straight blackwood since there is no agreed trump suit.

I would suggest to you that for a rather large portion of the player base this is in fact a specific ace ask. That arguably makes it more appealing than ordinary Blackwood but I think you are experienced enough not to be making claims such as the quote above.
(-: Zel :-)
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#27 User is offline   Left2Right 

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Posted 2017-December-21, 11:24

Contrary to the assertion that "there is no way to bid this scientifically;" there actually is: the Schenken 2 convention. (1)

The auction proceeds as follows.



2: Game Forcing, ace asking, usually a bizarre one-suiter.
2: Spade ace and no other ace.
3: King ask.
3N: Club king and no other king.

Yes, we sometimes have to hearken back to ancient history so we don't repeat the failures of the past. And, yes, of course you'll have to decide whether the easy handling of bizarre hands like this is a better trade-off than whatever currently occupies the 2 slot on your convention card.

In addition to the little tome shown in the citation below, the first round of the convention is reproduced here.



1. Howard Schenken's Big Club. Simon and Schuster. 1968. LOC 68-25753. p. 134.
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#28 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2017-December-21, 11:35

I don't mean to be flippant, but how many times in your life are you going to get a ten-bagger? I've been playing 40+ years and I've never had one yet.

Don't worry about these hands. They never come up and no one really knows how to bid them.

Cheers,
Mike
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#29 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-December-21, 11:38

View Postmiamijd, on 2017-December-21, 11:35, said:

I don't mean to be flippant, but how many times in your life are you going to get a ten-bagger? I've been playing 40+ years and I've never had one yet.

Don't worry about these hands. They never come up and no one really knows how to bid them.

Cheers,
Mike


Have held 3, 10111/10210/10300.
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#30 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-December-21, 11:39

View PostLeft2Right, on 2017-December-21, 11:24, said:

Contrary to the assertion that "there is no way to bid this scientifically;" there actually is: the Schenken 2 convention. (1)

The auction proceeds as follows.



2: Game Forcing, ace asking, usually a bizarre one-suiter.
2: Spade ace and no other ace.
3: King ask.
3N: Club king and no other king.

Yes, we sometimes have to hearken back to ancient history so we don't repeat the failures of the past. And, yes, of course you'll have to decide whether the easy handling of bizarre hands like this is a better trade-off than whatever currently occupies the 2 slot on your convention card.

In addition to the little tome shown in the citation below, the first round of the convention is reproduced here.



1. Howard Schenken's Big Club. Simon and Schuster. 1968. LOC 68-25753. p. 134.


Yeah and how well does it work when the next hand bids 3 or 4 ?
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#31 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2017-December-21, 12:02

In “Practical Bidding and Practical Play” Terrence Reece asks what the best opening bid would be if holding all 13 clubs. He rated 4C as the best bid, as if you then compete higher you may eventually be allowed to play there. He points out that even 5C+2 scores better than defending a seven level contract going minus one or two. He admits it was a fanciful question but uses it to illustrate the best approach when holding a freak hand, such as an extreme two suiter with a fit with partner. He recommends going slowly so that your later bids are plausible. Taking his advice perhaps the best opening on this hand is 3H in the hope that you will eventually be allowed to play at the four or five level.

Looking at other suggestions, the one that appeals least is 2C. This runs the extreme rick that partner will take you for a more balanced hand, stronger in high cards, and will bid some large number of spades, or diamonds, or even NT.
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#32 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-December-21, 12:18

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2017-December-21, 09:42, said:

This is a matter of the rules, that are in place, sometimes it will be allowed,
sometimes not.
You have certainly a 10 trick hand, i.e. a gameforcing hand, on the other hand, it
is low on HCP, for that matter it is also pretty low on defence.

The suggested seq.

2C - 2D
4H - 6H

works, ... although the diamond void was never shown, make it a spade void, you are off
2 cashing Aces, they still need to collect them, which may or may not be an easy task.

There are system, that show you strong 1-suited hands, Namyats (3NT / 4C / 4D opening)
to show something like this,... but you have a 10 card suit, and a void, ...,
If you open on the 4 level, it will be hard for partner to go on, the given partner hand wont.
If you cant stand a missed slam go for it, but than refrain from asking, how to avoid reaching
the slam with 2 missing cashing Aces.

With kind regards
Marlowe

I have given my sequence where I said I shall open this as 2 C.And also given the further bidding in my earlier post.
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#33 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-December-21, 12:28

View PostZelandakh, on 2017-December-21, 07:11, said:

Were you at the table then? I do not see a 6-1 under portia's hand record history.

Sir,my answers are for the OP and no one else.No one else can ask me anything .The OP May ask me whatever he wants but no one else.And We English are polite.
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#34 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-December-21, 12:53

View PostLeft2Right, on 2017-December-21, 11:24, said:

Contrary to the assertion that "there is no way to bid this scientifically;" there actually is: the Schenken 2 convention. (1)

The auction proceeds as follows.



2: Game Forcing, ace asking, usually a bizarre one-suiter.
2: Spade ace and no other ace.
3: King ask.
3N: Club king and no other king.

Yes, we sometimes have to hearken back to ancient history so we don't repeat the failures of the past. And, yes, of course you'll have to decide whether the easy handling of bizarre hands like this is a better trade-off than whatever currently occupies the 2 slot on your convention card.

In addition to the little tome shown in the citation below, the first round of the convention is reproduced here.



1. Howard Schenken's Big Club. Simon and Schuster. 1968. LOC 68-25753. p. 134.
Sir,thanks for supplying his information.The sequence is exceptionally good.IYou have suddenly evoked my interest in the theories proposed by Howard Schenken.
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#35 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2017-December-21, 15:08

You can construct a similar auction playing old fashioned Acol:

2C 2D
3H 3S (3H sets the suit, 3S shows the ace)
4C 4NT (Club ask, 4NT shows the king)
6H

Or you can have a similar auction one level higher if you choose to respond 3C rather than 2D.

However, I still believe that it is wrong to open with a game forcing bid on this hand, despite the obvious ten tricks. It is just too likely that partner will misread the situation and place too much value on honours in spades and diamonds.
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#36 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2017-December-21, 15:08

You can construct a similar auction playing old fashioned Acol:

2C 2D
3H 3S (3H sets the suit, 3S shows the ace)
4C 4NT (Club ask, 4NT shows the king)
6H

Or you can have a similar auction one level higher if you choose to respond 3C rather than 2D.

However, I still believe that it is wrong to open with a game forcing bid on this hand, despite the obvious ten tricks. It is just too likely that partner will misread the situation and place too much value on honours in spades and diamonds.
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#37 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2017-December-21, 15:08

You can construct a similar auction playing old fashioned Acol:

2C 2D
3H 3S (3H sets the suit, 3S shows the ace)
4C 4NT (Club ask, 4NT shows the king)
6H

Or you can have a similar auction one level higher if you choose to respond 3C rather than 2D.

However, I still believe that it is wrong to open with a game forcing bid on this hand, despite the obvious ten tricks. It is just too likely that partner will misread the situation and place too much value on honours in spades and diamonds.
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#38 User is offline   aawk 

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Posted 2017-December-21, 18:05

First I would call the director because you hold only 12 cards. If it was actually a 10 card I open 2 because its a game forcing hand after a 2 relay from partner I jump to 3 (showing long no trump support needed) followed by cue bids.
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#39 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-December-21, 21:24

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-December-21, 11:39, said:

Yeah and how well does it work when the next hand bids 3 or 4 ?


Yes, these posts about how the auction will go when they open at the two level are so sweet and naive.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#40 User is offline   StevenG 

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Posted 2017-December-22, 03:12

View PostVampyr, on 2017-December-21, 21:24, said:

Yes, these posts about how the auction will go when they open at the two level are so sweet and naive.

First in hand, there's always the possibility that partner has significant strength and opps don't have a lot. That aside, I'd still prefer to try for a constructive auction by opening 1 and improvising after interference. Of course, being in EBUland, I'm not allowed to open this with an artificial strong bid.
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