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3NT? 5D? 6D?

#1 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2017-December-18, 16:21

I am going to vary the hand, the problem will be to adjust the auction. Not all problems are solvable.


Mps, red against white, Lho deals and passes, partner bids 1NT (15-17), Rho passes, partner opens 1NT, opponents stay silent


654
A6
KJT9763
5

As it happened, partner has a fit. (A fit for the suit, not a mental breakdown.)

AK8
KT93
A42
QJ9

654
A6
KJT9763
5




Assuming that the diamonds come in without loss, which they will about 7 times out of 8, you have 11 tricks in either NoTrump or Diamonds. Maybe you have 12 in diamonds, but it's a little hard to see just where.

Now a variant:

AK8
KT93
A42
J92

654
A6
KJT9763
5


You still have have a probable 11 tricks, but in NT they presumably have five club tricks first. So you want to be in 5D, or at least I do.

Or try this:
AK8
KT93
A42
QJ9

Q54
A6
KJT9763
5




I have been trying without much luck to see how to sort out when we want to be in what with the hands either as they are or slightly varied. .
Ken
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#2 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2017-December-18, 16:25

Formatting issues maybe?
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#3 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2017-December-18, 16:39

View Postgwnn, on 2017-December-18, 16:25, said:

Formatting issues maybe?


indeed! Serious formatting issues. Mostly corrected now, I think the hand is interesting. I hope you will give it another look.
Ken
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#4 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2017-December-18, 16:52

I THINK I understand the problem. You would like to know how to discover a club stop in the opening 1n hand opposite your singleton/void in clubs and a long dia GF suit. The simplest for me (playing 4 suit transfers) is 1n 2n (transfer to diamonds) 3d
followed by 3h 3s 3n to show a problem in the specified suit with 3n = club problem). With the first hand opener can safely pass 3n but they cannot with the 2nd hand. With their minimum and no ruffing value I would suggest running to a NF 4d and responder with extra values and a singleton go to 5d. I hope that helps. GF to me is 3N 4M or 4m because it takes around a K extra to make 5m and we need to cater our bidding to 3n before worrying about 5m. The same can be done with long clubs 1n 2s 3c with
3d 3h 3s all designating a short suit.
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#5 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2017-December-18, 16:58

Yes, that is the problem I have in mind. I think with the given hand looking for 6D is asking too much. But depending on what the opening NT is on, we could want to be in 3NT or in 5D. I suppose we could want to be in a part score but that seems overly pessimistic. And vary the diamond hand just a little, and 6D may well be in the picture.

Actually, as the cards lay, 6D made and could make on any defense, but it helps to see all of the cards. I think on a random lie, you want to be in 3NT.


On, say, a spade lead declarer can take it and play four rounds of diamonds. W follows once, then pitches two spades, and then has no safe play on the fourth diamond. I did say double dummy. I think 3NT is the right contract.
Ken
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#6 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-December-18, 18:04

I suppose you could sacrifice playing in 3 clubs and instead use 2N as a relay:

1n-2N
3c (forced)-3D (either clubs with diamond shortage or diamonds with club shortage)
3H-let's play clubs if that is your suit or 3S let's play diamonds if that is your suit or 3N-drop dead.
If something cannot go on forever, it will stop. - Herb Stein
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#7 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2017-December-18, 21:15

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-December-18, 18:04, said:

I suppose you could sacrifice playing in 3 clubs and instead use 2N as a relay:

1n-2N
3c (forced)-3D (either clubs with diamond shortage or diamonds with club shortage)
3H-let's play clubs if that is your suit or 3S let's play diamonds if that is your suit or 3N-drop dead.



I think the problem comes to this: Most people have some way of bidding diamonds as a gf. Maybe 1NT-3D is natural and gane forcing, maybe 1NT-2NTshows diamonds, not gf at that point but then the next bid by responder shows a gf. In this latter style, it might go 1NT-2NT-3C showing a diamond fit, and then responder does something.But what. Another possibility is that 1NT-2NT not only shows a diamond fit but shows at least some ability to stop the other suits. That would sort out some of the problems here. With the actual hand it could go 1NT-2NT-3C-3NT where with the modified hand, opener with Jxx n clubs instead of QJx, it would go 1NT-2NT-3D, discouraging NT. I think some play it that way, but I am not sure it's so great. If opener has Jxx in clubs then it is rue that neither stops clubs. But they have a double stop in hearts. Responder does not need all suits stopped, s/he just needs the right suits stopped.

There is another issue. I lack an immediate reference but many would play that 1NT-2NT-3C(showing a diamond fit)-3S shows a singleton. Respnder's singleton is in clubs and 1NT-2NT-3C(showing Ds)-4C(showing stiff) takes us past 3NT.

This hand arose in a club game and we were EW. S basically blasted to 6D, neither showing her stiff club nor finding out about the spade A. Partner led the Club A, I played the 8 (std cding) hoping that if partner held the K, as he did, he would take this as a count card. He laid down the K and it was all over. I think I should have played the T rather than the 8, but ...


Anyway, I got to thinking later just hiw would I bid it. And I have not yet figured it out. If you randomly shuffle the EW cards I think that on most hands you do not want to be in 6D. But with 11 tricks in NT you really do not want to be in 5D.
Ken
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#8 User is online   nige1 

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Posted 2017-December-19, 01:35

View Postkenberg, on 2017-December-18, 16:58, said:


Yes, that is the problem I have in mind. I think with the given hand looking for 6D is asking too much. But depending on what the opening NT is on, we could want to be in 3NT or in 5D. I suppose we could want to be in a part score but that seems overly pessimistic. And vary the diamond hand just a little, and 6D may well be in the picture.
Actually, as the cards lay, 6D made and could make on any defense, but it helps to see all of the cards. I think on a random lie, you want to be in 3NT.
On, say, a spade lead declarer can take it and play four rounds of diamonds. W follows once, then pitches two spades, and then has no safe play on the fourth diamond. I did say double dummy. I think 3NT is the right contract.

I rank
  • 3N = NAT. Practical gamble. If a lead would defeat this, opponents might not find it after an uninformative auction. At MPs, 3N is a better prospect than 5 because of the chance of overtrick(s)
  • 2N = TRF. Exploring for the best contract 3N, 5 or even 6.
  • 5 = PRE. Mastermind. Both opponents have already passed so interference is unlikely.

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#9 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2017-December-19, 13:32

I'm bidding 3 NT with the hand all the time at MPs.

Yes, the opponents might be running 5 or 6 tricks. But first they've got to find the lead AND they have to be able to prevent a block.

In the meantime, I know there's presumably a 9+ card fit.

I would anticipate that there would be plenty of other players in 3 NT also. So, going down in 3 NT probably isn't going to be a bottom either.
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#10 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-December-19, 15:13

View Postkenberg, on 2017-December-18, 21:15, said:

I think the problem comes to this: Most people have some way of bidding diamonds as a gf. Maybe 1NT-3D is natural and gane forcing, maybe 1NT-2NTshows diamonds, not gf at that point but then the next bid by responder shows a gf. In this latter style, it might go 1NT-2NT-3C showing a diamond fit, and then responder does something.But what. Another possibility is that 1NT-2NT not only shows a diamond fit but shows at least some ability to stop the other suits. That would sort out some of the problems here. With the actual hand it could go 1NT-2NT-3C-3NT where with the modified hand, opener with Jxx n clubs instead of QJx, it would go 1NT-2NT-3D, discouraging NT. I think some play it that way, but I am not sure it's so great. If opener has Jxx in clubs then it is rue that neither stops clubs. But they have a double stop in hearts. Responder does not need all suits stopped, s/he just needs the right suits stopped.

There is another issue. I lack an immediate reference but many would play that 1NT-2NT-3C(showing a diamond fit)-3S shows a singleton. Respnder's singleton is in clubs and 1NT-2NT-3C(showing Ds)-4C(showing stiff) takes us past 3NT.

This hand arose in a club game and we were EW. S basically blasted to 6D, neither showing her stiff club nor finding out about the spade A. Partner led the Club A, I played the 8 (std cding) hoping that if partner held the K, as he did, he would take this as a count card. He laid down the K and it was all over. I think I should have played the T rather than the 8, but ...


Anyway, I got to thinking later just hiw would I bid it. And I have not yet figured it out. If you randomly shuffle the EW cards I think that on most hands you do not want to be in 6D. But with 11 tricks in NT you really do not want to be in 5D.


As always, the problem is showing club shortness with a diamond suit without bypassing 3NT.
If something cannot go on forever, it will stop. - Herb Stein
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