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Long Diamonds

#1 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-December-14, 05:48



Teams of 4 match, all non-vul, spots approximate.

Partner deals and opens a weak NT. What is your plan?

If you choose to bid 2NT (transfer to diamonds), opponents remain silent and partner bids 3, (promising QXX or better in diamonds). What now?
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#2 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2017-December-14, 05:52

I would bid 5 DIAMONDS straight away.
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#3 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-December-14, 06:03

You have no way of knowing if you're making 5 (Axxx, Axxx, Axx, xx) or not making 3 (KQxx, KQx, Axx, xxx is very maximum and you only have 8 tricks). Love all I'd probably pass
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#4 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2017-December-14, 06:07

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-December-14, 06:03, said:

You have no way of knowing if you're making 5 (Axxx, Axxx, Axx, xx) or not making 3 (KQxx, KQx, Axx, xxx is very maximum and you only have 8 tricks). Love all I'd probably pass


my concern is not so much that we may or may not make 5 diamonds, it's more that the opponents could easily be making 4M
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#5 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-December-14, 07:03

View Posteagles123, on 2017-December-14, 06:07, said:

my concern is not so much that we may or may not make 5 diamonds, it's more that the opponents could easily be making 4M


Agreed, to an extent you're playing your opps here, coming in at the 3 level can be dangerous in this auction, and many bad players won't when they should. You can be going for 500 against nothing here by bidding 5. Did partner guarantee 3 diamonds with 3 ? or is Ax sufficient ?

Are your opps organised enough to know what:

Doubling 2N
Bidding an immediate 3
Bidding 3M immediately
Passing then bidding 3M
Passing then doubling 3

mean ?
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#6 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-December-14, 08:19

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-December-14, 07:03, said:

Agreed, to an extent you're playing your opps here, coming in at the 3 level can be dangerous in this auction, and many bad players won't when they should. You can be going for 500 against nothing here by bidding 5. Did partner guarantee 3 diamonds with 3 ? or is Ax sufficient ?

Are your opps organised enough to know what:

Doubling 2N
Bidding an immediate 3
Bidding 3M immediately
Passing then bidding 3M
Passing then doubling 3

mean ?


Yes, agreed you are playing your opps - this was certainly my approach. I nearly bid 5 as suggested by Rowland, but I wasn't convinced that they would be going to 4M. Partner surprised my by replying 3 showing three diamonds including a top honour. What now? I could make a case for 3NT, 5 or pass ...
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#7 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2017-December-14, 08:45

Without knowing if 5 or 3nt is the winner I always choose the one with the biggest upside/chance and that's 3nt.

After transferring, silent (so far) opps are surely out of the action and who knows? You might get a lead from KQJx when they could run 1 or 2 other suits.
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#8 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-December-14, 09:29

View Postggwhiz, on 2017-December-14, 08:45, said:

Without knowing if 5 or 3nt is the winner I always choose the one with the biggest upside/chance and that's 3nt.

If partner has no aces you might take 0 tricks in 3N.
I really don't like my chances of making either 3N or 5.
Looks more likely opps are making 4M.
3N might work showing you have cards and scaring opps out of bidding but making doubtful unless North perfect hand.
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#9 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2017-December-14, 09:38

pass 3 plus score better than minus score :)
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#10 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2017-December-14, 11:22

Well, partner can't have enough for slam, so that's out.

Maybe, a little consideration of IMP scoring should be considered. Non-Vulnerable, it's about a wash whether or not you bid game or not. If you bid it and it makes, you get 270+ if the opponents don't bid it, nothing if they do. If you bid it and it doesn't make, you give away 280 max, if the opponents settle for a part score. The opponents might get more if somehow they find a double. But your side has at least 18 HCP, so it's pretty hard to see that happening with the opponents having only 22 HCP and no possible trump stack.

But consider the implications of partner's bidding and your hand. Since partner by agreement has to have at least Axx or better, you can have no more than 1 defensive trick in . Additionally you know that your side has no more than 5 cards in either major and maybe less in one or both of them.

Do you think the opponents might reopen if 3 is passed? It seems very possible that they may back in, given the weakness expressed by passing 3 . Unless partner has just the right cards, it's very possible 3 or 4 of a major may make.

So, I'm taking an insurance policy out by bidding 5 . If it makes fine. If not, the losses are limited even if 3 NT makes. But more importantly, the opponents can't know if 5 is bid on strength or not. If 3 is passed and then we compete to 5 , it's more likely to be doubled.
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#11 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-December-14, 12:43

5D now.
This post sponsored by: All County Building Supply & Maintenance, Felo, NY.
Without truth it is impossible to speak truth to power, so there is only power.
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#12 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2017-December-14, 13:02

Textbook hand for 5
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#13 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-December-14, 14:12

View PostTramticket, on 2017-December-14, 05:48, said:


Teams of 4 match, all non-vul, spots approximate.
Partner deals and opens a weak NT. What is your plan?
If you choose to bid 2NT (transfer to diamonds), opponents remain silent and partner bids 3, (promising QXX or better in diamonds). What now?

I rank
  • 3N = NAT. Might even make when partner has say A x x K Q x A x x x x x x or A Q x A Q x x x x J T x x
  • 5 = PRE. More pre-emptive than 3N but less likely to make.
  • 2N = TRF. Invites interference and leaves you not much the wiser.
  • Pass = NAT. Masochistic.

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#14 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-December-15, 02:04

Since it is a weak No Trump opening my bid (as we play it) is 3D a highly invitational yet non forcing bid.
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#15 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-December-15, 02:51

I bid 2NT (transfer) and then gambled on 3NT, when partner showed AXX in diamonds. Our opponents remained remarkably silent, showing no interest until it came to RHO in the pass out seat who contemplated for ages, asked lots of questions about our system - and then passed!

Our team-mates were more bullish and bid their spade game, followed by a double of the opposing 5 "sacrifice".

Partner held AXXX, AXXX, AXX, JX (full marks to Cyberyeti for predicting - post #3). 5 made for -550 and we drifted one off in 3NT when the opps cashed the first five clubs. :(

I think that 5 straight off must be right, as several have said. I was going to bid this but changed my mind when I sensed that LHO didn't seem to have much interest in the auction. :(
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#16 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-December-15, 02:58

View Postnige1, on 2017-December-14, 14:12, said:

I rank
  • 3N = NAT. Might even make when partner has say A x x K Q x A x x x x x x



3NT might be six or seven off if partner doesn't have the ace of diamonds. Even at 50s this isn't great (although a bit better than an opposing game contract in a major).
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#17 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-December-15, 04:23

View PostTramticket, on 2017-December-15, 02:51, said:

Partner held AXXX, AXXX, AXX, JX (full marks to Cyberyeti for predicting - post #3).

3 bullets and a shortage but at MPs, I would still have preferred your 3N.
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#18 User is offline   aawk 

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Posted 2017-December-15, 07:26

Any action is a gamble (pass/3nt/5) but playing for IMPs I would bid 3nt with the argument if it smells like game bid game.
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#19 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2017-December-15, 11:21

I must admit that I would have bid 3NT immediately. If it doesn’t make it might well be a good save against a major suit game. Of course if confidentiality doubled I would do a runner.
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#20 User is offline   cleveritis 

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Posted 2017-December-15, 14:10

There is never a RIGHT answer on these weird hands - the percentage bid at love all is 3N. They are very likely cold for game - and we might even make +430 if they make the wrong lead/ switch. They need to have worked out what a cold double of 3N means, what 4m means, what 4M can or can't be... it is VERY hard... What do you bid holding AQJxx, KQtx, x, Axx over 1N - 3N by opps... partner leads heart from Kxx, J9xxxx, xx,xx... unlucky! if it goes double pass pass, I will bid 5 diamonds...
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