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Opening bid with 6-5 Bidding

#1 User is offline   Nasok 

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Posted 2017-December-10, 16:21

Non vul. Team match .1st seat.
Your hand
X
QJ109xx
Q
KJ8xx
What is your bid
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#2 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2017-December-10, 16:33

2 no defense. pass or 1 poor choice
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#3 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-December-10, 16:55

View PostLBengtsson, on 2017-December-10, 16:33, said:

2 no defense. pass or 1 poor choice


Would prefer 4 to 2, it's several tricks too good for one of our 2 bids, we'd actually open 1 but not particularly like it. Pass is dangerous in that partner may assume you can't be this good and not get involved in an auction when it's your hand.
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#4 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-December-10, 17:36

View PostNasok, on 2017-December-10, 16:21, said:

Non vul. Team match .1st seat. Your hand x Q J 10 9 x x Q K J 8 x x
What is your bid

I rank
  • 1 = NAT.
  • 2 = If too weak for 1 under your methods.
  • 4 = NAT. Prepared to apologise if it goes pear-shaped.
  • Pass = NAT intending to compete with Michaels or an unusual 2N.

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#5 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2017-December-10, 17:44

Too good for 2. 1 with so little defense is not great. Nonvulnerable at IMPs 4 is ok with this suit that is likely to provide four tricks opposite a singleton. Otherwise 3. Pass is not an option.
... most of the new ideas I get are pretty "boring", mostly focusing on constructive methods rather than destructive ones --- Kungsgeten
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#6 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-December-11, 01:12

Hello Nasok and welcome to the BBO forums.

2, 3 and 4 all have their arguments. None of these would be wrong - the decision is more tactical than one being clearly better than the others. I would recommend against Pass or 1 though. Finally, another possible gambit with this shape is a 2NT opening bid.
(-: Zel :-)
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#7 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2017-December-11, 02:30

3 for me unless we agreed to some weird style. In fact, I like opening 3M on 6M4m as well, but that's also a weird style.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
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#8 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-December-11, 06:00

We have a 2 available as a two-suiter, but partner will only expect five hearts and I would prefer to open 2 (multi) or, better still, 3 or 4.
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#9 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2017-December-11, 07:04

View PostZelandakh, on 2017-December-11, 01:12, said:

...Finally, another possible gambit with this shape is a 2NT opening bid.

This is one I had not thought of. It could be difficult getting back to team-mates after 2NT 3NT, 4 4NT (X). Or maybe 2NT 6NT (X).

I think it is so awkward, anything could be right. I will not argue against Pass, because you are much more likely to avoid a terrible score by coming into the bidding later, but for me, it fits my style for natural weak 2.
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#10 User is offline   mikestar13 

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Posted 2017-December-11, 07:53

My first instinct is 3, high enough to get in their way,less likely to attract a double than 4. The hand is too weak for 1 and the shape is wrong for 2 unless you have unusual standards. Pass is not my choice but it may well work.
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#11 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-December-11, 08:20

View PostfromageGB, on 2017-December-11, 07:04, said:

This is one I had not thought of. It could be difficult getting back to team-mates after 2NT 3NT, 4 4NT (X). Or maybe 2NT 6NT (X).

It is something of a gamble for sure but the odds favour partner having 4 or more spades, in which case you will usually hear 3, 3 or 4, any of which can be passed. if partner bids a simple 3NT then the opps can almost certainly make 4 so going down in 50s is not so bad. The killer is a 4NT or 6NT response and there is not much you can do about that; but that is such a low proportion of cases that the gambit has merit and is, I feel, worth a mention. If nothing else it is nice to know the pattern in case it ever happens against you!
(-: Zel :-)
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#12 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-December-11, 08:23

View Postmikestar13, on 2017-December-11, 07:53, said:

and the shape is wrong for 2 unless you have unusual standards.

The point behind a 2 opening is that you will usually compete again with 4 if the bidding comes back at a low enough level. It is much less likely that you will get a chance to show both suits after a 3 or 4 opening.
(-: Zel :-)
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#13 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2017-December-11, 10:48

View PostZelandakh, on 2017-December-11, 08:23, said:

The point behind a 2 opening is that you will usually compete again with 4 if the bidding comes back at a low enough level. It is much less likely that you will get a chance to show both suits after a 3 or 4 opening.


i thought too that 3 opening bid ok, a 4 opening bid too high, but even as hand is strong for a 2 opening bid, the hand is shape for jumping michaels so good chance after 2 to bid 4 in auction and partner know that your 6/5 shape
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#14 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-December-11, 11:50

View PostLBengtsson, on 2017-December-11, 10:48, said:

i thought too that 3 opening bid ok, a 4 opening bid too high, but even as hand is strong for a 2 opening bid, the hand is shape for jumping michaels so good chance after 2 to bid 4 in auction and partner know that your 6/5 shape


I might do that if I was willing to bid 5 unilaterally over 4 (prob 6-6), but I would be really uncomfortable if it proceded 2-P-4.
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#15 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-December-11, 13:09

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-December-11, 11:50, said:

I might do that if I was willing to bid 5 unilaterally over 4 (prob 6-6), but I would be really uncomfortable if it proceded 2-P-4.

Against that there are not so many hands where the corresponding auction over 3 would not be (3) - 3 - 4. I am not saying that 2 is necessarily better than 3 on this hand but it certainly has its advantages.
(-: Zel :-)
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#16 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-December-11, 16:31

View PostZelandakh, on 2017-December-11, 13:09, said:

Against that there are not so many hands where the corresponding auction over 3 would not be (3) - 3 - 4. I am not saying that 2 is necessarily better than 3 on this hand but it certainly has its advantages.


This is why I didn't open 3, partner is more likely to act when it's right over 1-(1) and they might not be able to bid 4 over 4.
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#17 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2017-December-11, 19:39

The Pavelick analysis suggests if you are choosing between 1H and 4H you should bid 4. Lots of the hands in his sample are 6-5 freakshows that look like the one here, which strongly suggests the best action here is 4H. Way less clear with spades - looks like an IMPs winner and a matchpoint loser to go with 4S over 1S, so it's probably a line ball in actuality and anything is right.

Reason for 4H working better:

Opponents landed in a bad contract: 5
Mis-Defence: 5
Found a good save: 3
Various places you get into a good contract or block oppo from getting into a good contract: 5


Reasons for 1H working better

Misdefence: 2
Found a slam: 1
Stopped in a part score when game didn't make: 1
Opponents had more confidence in bidding to a grand slam that doens't make where they only get to 6 clubs going off on the other table: 1
Opponents give you a clue in the bidding so you find a better line: 1
Opponents get to high: 1
You don't get doubled when opponents have no-where to go and play 4Hx going off: 1

This is pretty convicing for me, just bid 4H and see what happens. Opponents will be under massive pressure and partner cannot get you in trouble! win/win.
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#18 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2017-December-12, 02:55

View PostCthulhu D, on 2017-December-11, 19:39, said:

The Pavelick analysis suggests if you are choosing between 1H and 4H you should bid 4.

Thank God we are not choosing between 1H and 4H.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
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#19 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-December-12, 03:44

View Postgwnn, on 2017-December-12, 02:55, said:

Thank God we are not choosing between 1H and 4H.


You might not be, I am :)
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