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Revokes

#21 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-December-10, 23:18

View Postbarmar, on 2017-December-10, 22:04, said:

In ACBL, you just have to pass an open-book test.

When I got my club director certification (15-20 years ago) I took a 6-hour class at an NABC, at the end of which they gave the exam. But I suspect you can do it from home these days. To get certified as an assistant Tournament Director a few years ago they emailed me a PDF of the exam.


When I passed the club director exam a bit longer ago than you, I wasn't even required to take a class.

The ACBL should really follow the example of other countries, who run training courses. The club and county courses run by the EBU are enjoyable as well as educational.

But the incident didn't happen in the ACBL anyway.
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#22 User is offline   ye17 

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Posted 2017-December-11, 02:20

View Postpran, on 2017-December-10, 14:45, said:

What are his qualifications as TD? Over 40 years experience as a player, or has he passed some training and exams?

He attended and passed an EBU assessment course last year. While I can understand the desirability of running a course where the pass rate is 100% to encourage more new TDs, the consequence is that this doesn't imply competence.

View PostVampyr, on 2017-December-10, 18:08, said:

Which rule did the director read out? If none, you should have asked him to.

Thank you. That is a helpful suggestion for next time.
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#23 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2017-December-11, 03:06

View Postye17, on 2017-December-11, 02:20, said:

While I can understand the desirability of running a course where the pass rate is 100% to encourage more new TDs, the consequence is that this doesn't imply competence.

The pass rate in EBU club courses is high, but it's not 100%.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
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#24 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2017-December-11, 17:38

Yes, you can take the club director exam "at home". You'll need a proctor (pretty sure, but not positive, he needs to be a club director or better himself). You can bring whatever books you want to the test. When I took it, there were 100 questions and 15 "bonus" questions. Of the 115 I missed three, and I still think I should have got credit for two of them, though I don't now remember the details - I was not allowed to keep a copy of the test.
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#25 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-December-11, 22:49

View PostVampyr, on 2017-December-10, 23:18, said:

When I passed the club director exam a bit longer ago than you, I wasn't even required to take a class.

It wasn't a requirement, just something they offered at NABCs.

#26 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2017-December-12, 18:47

The ACBL will be happy, I'm sure, to send somebody somewhere to give the course at a Regional, or even just in some city or whatever, provided they have someone available. Probably not a good idea to ask for an instructor during a NABC, if the NABC is not where you want the instruction. And of course, there will be a price. I haven't looked into that recently, but as I recall, it ain't cheap. There's also a refresher course.
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#27 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-December-13, 07:38

View Postblackshoe, on 2017-December-12, 18:47, said:

The ACBL will be happy, I'm sure, to send somebody somewhere to give the course at a Regional, or even just in some city or whatever, provided they have someone available. Probably not a good idea to ask for an instructor during a NABC, if the NABC is not where you want the instruction. And of course, there will be a price. I haven't looked into that recently, but as I recall, it ain't cheap. There's also a refresher course.


In the EBU you can take the entire course (four full days, the last one assessment) at the Summer Meeting. Otherwise the individual days are offered in various places on weekends. So you could attend over the course of months or even years. There are also seminars when Laws or regulations change. The County Director course is offered once a year. It is a residential weekend, and can be taken repeat times as a refresher.

The cost is not prohibitive, and at least for the club director course a club will often sponsor members so the club has a greater qualified pool to draw from.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#28 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2017-December-13, 10:14

The EBU has a good training program for club directors. The ACBL does not.

County Director. Hm. Is that roughly equivalent to our "Local Director"?

Hm. The ACBL's TD ranks are Local, Associate Tournament Director, Tournament Director, Associate National and National. I haven't found anything to tell me what each of these means though. :(
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#29 User is offline   RMB1 

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Posted 2017-December-13, 17:11

View Postblackshoe, on 2017-December-13, 10:14, said:


County Director. Hm. Is that roughly equivalent to our "Local Director"?



There are three major tiers of the EBU organisation: club, county and national.

County organisations are based roughly on administrative counties. Administrative counties were reorganised in 1974 and more changes since and local bridge politics has seen separation and amalgamation of the county associations. There are approx. 40 county associations.

There are Club Directors for clubs.

The County course qualifies County Directors (to run county events) and spot talent for national grade.

The national directors are termed "EBU Panel Directors" and have grades: trainee, Congress B, Congress A, Senior and National - in increasing order of responsibility at events. Progress through the grades is by examination and interview.
Robin

"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in. Got any gin?" (DNA)
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#30 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2017-December-13, 21:14

Thanks Robin. Seems similar, though different in some respects. Here, club directors work for (or own) a club. All the rest (from Local up to National) work for the ACBL. I guess the structure for ACBL directors is similar to your trainee to National. I guess we don't have a "county" equivalent, then.
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#31 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-December-16, 07:43

Local = Club = Copper
ATD/TD = County = Silver
AND/ND = National = Gold?
(-: Zel :-)
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#32 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2017-December-16, 15:41

I got a reply from Sol Weinstein to my request for information about the ACBL's TD structure. He said

Quote

What you seek is not available online. There is no quick explanation. That is not TD structure

The last refers to the list of ranks I posted in #28 here.
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#33 User is offline   RMB1 

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Posted 2017-December-16, 16:58

View Postblackshoe, on 2017-December-13, 21:14, said:

... club directors work for (or own) a club. All the rest (from Local up to National) work for the ACBL. ...


Most directors in England are not employees of the club, country or EBU.
Robin

"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in. Got any gin?" (DNA)
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#34 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-December-17, 09:53

View PostRMB1, on 2017-December-16, 16:58, said:

Most directors in England are not employees of the club, country or EBU.

What are they, independent contractors (if they get paid) and volunteers (if they don't)?

#35 User is offline   RMB1 

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Posted 2017-December-17, 12:57

View Postbarmar, on 2017-December-17, 09:53, said:

What are they, independent contractors (if they get paid) and volunteers (if they don't)?


Self-employed contractors - but I am not sure how the tax system terminology translates.

If they were employees they would be entitled to leave and sick play and would pay tax through the employer.
Instead they choose when they are available and how they pay their taxes.

Robin
Robin

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#36 User is offline   661_Pete 

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Posted 2018-January-15, 05:17

[post deleted]
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#37 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2018-January-15, 07:02

View Post661_Pete, on 2018-January-15, 05:17, said:

[...]

One little detail, which I didn't mention in my OP because I thought it wasn't relevant: during the evening in question, my partner/TD kept on asking me, whenever I was declarer, whether I was revoking. Yes I'm fully aware of Law 42.B.1: "Dummy may ask declarer (but not a defender) when he has failed to follow suit to a trick whether he has a card of the suit led." But to ask me "any spades, partner", "any hearts, partner", etc., every time I show out of a suit.....?

I am not in the habit of revoking, though we all have accidents at times, don't we?

I call this intimidation. Feel free to disagree.

Don't you think that

Law 74A2 said:

A player should carefully avoid any remark or extraneous action that might cause annoyance or embarrassment to another player or might interfere with the enjoyment of the game.

what needs to be said?

Given the power I would tell him to behave.
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#38 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2018-January-15, 10:39

Many players have formed a habit of asking that question as dummy, and it can be hard to overcome the compulsion. It's not intended as intimidation, it's supposed to be helpful, so
try to take it in that spirit. Although usually they only ask the first time you show out of a particular suit -- if he asks multiple times about the same suit, that's excessive (but sometimes you forget that you already asked).

Most bridge clubs are not doing so well that they can afford to drive away players for minor issues. Now that you've brought it up, I'm really curious what improprieties you're being banned for.

#39 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2018-January-15, 15:07

"Effectively banned" makes me wonder if he's really saying he's not happy, so he's not going back, not actually banned.
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#40 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2018-January-16, 02:30

View Post661_Pete, on 2018-January-15, 05:17, said:

One little detail, which I didn't mention in my OP because I thought it wasn't relevant: during the evening in question, my partner/TD kept on asking me, whenever I was declarer, whether I was revoking. Yes I'm fully aware of Law 42.B.1: "Dummy may ask declarer (but not a defender) when he has failed to follow suit to a trick whether he has a card of the suit led." But to ask me "any spades, partner", "any hearts, partner", etc., every time I show out of a suit.....?
I am not in the habit of revoking, though we all have accidents at times, don't we?
I call this intimidation. Feel free to disagree.

Law 42B1 allows dummy to take part in the play. Also, a defender can provide unauthorised information to partner, unless he always asks. Hence, Law 42B is stupid, unnecessary, and should be scrapped. While this daft law is in force, however, and until reason prevails, you might as well take advantage of it to "prevent the irregularity" of a revoke. Partner should be grateful for your concern.
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