BBO Discussion Forums: Penalty card warning by partner - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Penalty card warning by partner

#1 User is offline   jerdonald 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 105
  • Joined: 2011-July-27

Posted 2017-December-05, 17:35

BBO forum,
Today my partner was declarer and her LHO accidentally
led a card with another one under it and exposed.
The exposed card became a minor penalty card and she
led the other card. Fine.

Later in the hand she took a trick and led a card out
of her hand when she should have led the penalty card
so that card from her hand became a minor penalty card.

The same thing happened later in the hand but this time
her partner spoke up to stop her from playing a card
from her hand. I contend that her partner shouldn't
have interfered because another one of LHO's cards could
have been disclosed to declarer.

Is her partner allowed to direct partner's action when
it could be an advantage to declarer?

Jerryd

0

#2 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,101
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2017-December-06, 02:42

A card led illegally, such as in failing to play a penalty card, is a major penalty card. Even if it was, as it was here evidently, a different small card of the same suit as the mPC?

But it was ruled to be a minor penalty card, OK. So when the offender was on lead the second time, how did her partner know that she was about to play, from her hand, a further small card from the same suit? All other leads, of course, would in the first and the second instance, be legal plays.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#3 User is offline   gordontd 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,810
  • Joined: 2009-July-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London

Posted 2017-December-06, 03:06

View PostVampyr, on 2017-December-06, 02:42, said:

A card led illegally, such as in failing to play a penalty card, is a major penalty card. Even if it was, as it was here evidently, a different small card of the same suit as the mPC?

But it was ruled to be a minor penalty card, OK. So when the offender was on lead the second time, how did her partner know that she was about to play, from her hand, a further small card from the same suit? All other leads, of course, would in the first and the second instance, be legal plays.

Indeed. There are so many problems with the scenario as described that it's hard to know where to begin with them, but I imagine most of them would have been solved by calling the director as required, rather than the table making its own ruling.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
1

#4 User is offline   jerdonald 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 105
  • Joined: 2011-July-27

Posted 2017-December-06, 15:26

BBO forum,
In the second instance the LHO pulled a card out of her hand
and was about to put it on the table when her partner told
her not to play it. The partner warning prevented her
from making a mistaken lead but it also prevented declarer
from seeing another card in LHO's hand and creating another
penalty card. Is her partner allowed to warn about this.
Seems like there shouldn't be any table talk between
partners during the play.

Jerryd
0

#5 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,101
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2017-December-06, 16:15

View Postjerdonald, on 2017-December-06, 15:26, said:

BBO forum,
In the second instance the LHO pulled a card out of her hand
and was about to put it on the table when her partner told
her not to play it. The partner warning prevented her
from making a mistaken lead but it also prevented declarer
from seeing another card in LHO's hand and creating another
penalty card. Is her partner allowed to warn about this.
Seems like there shouldn't be any table talk between
partners during the play.

Jerryd


My question earlier was how could the offender's partner know that the card offender was about to lead was an illegal card?
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

#6 User is offline   ahydra 

  • AQT92 AQ --- QJ6532
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,439
  • Joined: 2009-September-09
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2017-December-06, 19:23

To clarify Vampyr's point, the restrictions on a minor penalty card do not require it to be played at the first legal opportunity, but rather the player with the mPC must play the penalty card before any other small (2-9) card in the same suit. They can still lead/play an honour in the suit, or a card of a different suit. My reading of the OP is that this difference between major and minor penalty cards may have been missed in the table.

So:
- in the first instance was the card that was led supposedly in error another small card in the mPC suit?
- in the second instance how did offender's partner know that offender was about to lead a small card in the mPC suit?
- next time, as Gordon said, CALL THE TD!

Oh, and this should also be in the Laws and Rulings forum, of course.

ahydra
0

#7 User is offline   blackshoe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 16,038
  • Joined: 2006-April-17
  • Location:Rochester, NY

Posted 2017-December-07, 21:41

Quote

Law 9A3: Any player, including dummy, may attempt to prevent an irregularity (but for dummy subject to Laws 42 and 43).

The answer to the OP's question is yes, he can do that. And then he should call the director, if the director has not already told the table what the ruling is on the first penalty card.

It is also true that this should be in the IBLF, probably in Simple Rulings. Unfortunately, I can't move it.
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
0

#8 User is offline   steve2005 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,353
  • Joined: 2010-April-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hamilton, Canada
  • Interests:Bridge duh!

Posted 2017-December-08, 22:01

View PostVampyr, on 2017-December-06, 16:15, said:

My question earlier was how could the offender's partner know that the card offender was about to lead was an illegal card?

Because partner mistakenly believe that the minor penalty card had to be led so had to lead the card on the table not the one in their hand. or the second card which was incorrectly ruled as a major penalty card. In any case the morale of the story is call the director don't make your own rulings.
Hopefully this was right, but even if not call the director.


Sarcasm is a state of mind
0

#9 User is offline   Vampyr 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 9,101
  • Joined: 2009-September-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 2017-December-09, 04:14

View Poststeve2005, on 2017-December-08, 22:01, said:

Because partner mistakenly believe that the minor penalty card had to be led so had to lead the card on the table not the one in their hand. or the second card which was incorrectly ruled as a major penalty card. In any case the morale of the story is call the director don't make your own rulings.
Hopefully this was right, but even if not call the director.


The first penalty card could in fact have been an honour, in which case both "minor penalty cards" would actually have been major penalty cards. Yes, of course the director would have sorted it out.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
0

Share this topic:


Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users