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ATB - decent slam missed

Poll: ATB - decent slam missed (27 member(s) have cast votes)

In a perfect world...

  1. S would have bid 4H over 3S (2 votes [7.14%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 7.14%

  2. N would have cued 4S over 4H (3 votes [10.71%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 10.71%

  3. Neither would have done anything differently, and all is for the best in this, the best of all possible worlds (11 votes [39.29%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 39.29%

  4. Other (12 votes [42.86%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 42.86%

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#1 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2017-December-02, 20:53



Also, suppose you managed to bid your way to 6, and E leads the Q. What's your plan?

If you draw trumps, W shows up with JT3, and E discards a couple of nondescript spades.

If you ruff out the second spade, west will follow with the 5 and 3 in some random-looking order.
The "4 is a transfer to 4" award goes to Jinksy - PhilKing
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#2 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2017-December-02, 23:34

decent? google search = acceptable, ok. need not 4-0, but need finesse, split or drop, need endplay, need guess? more lucky than ok. i take 4, not 6
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#3 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-December-03, 01:01

The small slam has a good chance to make if hearts are not 4/0,the DK is in finesse and one makes a correct guess in clubs..No! I,personally,would not like a 6H contract.The North hand is just a winner short of a standard 2C opening and South has a 9 losers hand so I do not think there is anything wrong with the bidding as It went .Had the club king been with South the chances increase a lot becoming almost a certainty if hearts are not 4/0 and the DK is in finesse..
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#4 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-December-03, 04:03

This is a very heavy 1H opening. And the alert seems to imply that it isn't even a maximum.

It's either north or "system"! Has north shown a four-loser 22 count with all four aces and a side-suit singleton?
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#5 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2017-December-03, 04:40

Playing Fantunes, it might actually be possible to bid this slam, since S has enough to raise.

It's not a very good slam, though.
So there is someone who is more pedantic than I am. Good to know ;) --- Blackshoe
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#6 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2017-December-03, 06:48

I think people are underestimating the slam. In a constructive auction it would have been maybe 48% (the location of the K doesn't matter if you're taking the C finesse), but E's preempt raises the chance both of the finesse working and of hearts being 4-0. I don't know how to do the maths properly, but my intuition is that the club situation is more important, since that's positive EV for every fraction of a club you take from E (who a priori had 2.5 in expectation), and only makes the slam worse if you give him 2 full hearts (at which point admittedly it seems to make the slam unmakeable).
The "4 is a transfer to 4" award goes to Jinksy - PhilKing
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#7 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2017-December-03, 07:56

View PostJinksy, on 2017-December-02, 20:53, said:



Also, suppose you managed to bid your way to 6, and E leads the Q. What's your plan?

If you draw trumps, W shows up with JT3, and E discards a couple of nondescript spades.

If you ruff out the second spade, west will follow with the 5 and 3 in some random-looking order.

IMHO North is the villain here. I consider his hand far too good for a mere 1 heart opening.
I would open 2 clubs holding the North cards immediately proclaiming a very powerful hand.
This would embolden South into action knowing there was a powerhouse facing him.
The bidding could go 23 4 ends. If 12 tricks were made,it wouldn't make any
difference. The majority of the field would settle for game rather than risk a dodgy slam which would
give a horrendous score if it failed.
"It is not enough to be a good player, you must also play well"
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Bridge is a game where you have two opponents...and often three(!)


"Any palooka can take tricks with Aces and Kings; the true expert shows his prowess
by how he handles the two's and three's" - Mollo's Hideous Hog
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#8 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2017-December-03, 08:03

Given that 2!C would show 10-13 points and 5+ clubs, I think there are better descriptions of the hand.
The "4 is a transfer to 4" award goes to Jinksy - PhilKing
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#9 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2017-December-03, 09:15

View PostJinksy, on 2017-December-03, 08:03, said:

Given that 2!C would show 10-13 points and 5+ clubs, I think there are better descriptions of the hand.

What system are you playing that shows this(?) Come to think of it,
the opening poster didn't mention what bidding system was being used.
I was assuming it was SA the dominant system here on BBO
"It is not enough to be a good player, you must also play well"
- Dr Tarrasch(1862-1934)German Chess Grandmaster

Bridge is a game where you have two opponents...and often three(!)


"Any palooka can take tricks with Aces and Kings; the true expert shows his prowess
by how he handles the two's and three's" - Mollo's Hideous Hog
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#10 User is offline   maartenxq 

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Posted 2017-December-03, 09:45

As it is north and south are stuck. Slam is decent but wil be down once in a while. North should however open 2 , bad suit but too much point and controls.
2 - 3 - p - p
4
does not make this easier.
south could venture 5 !h and the slam will be reached.

As for play 2 rounds of trumps cash ace, cross in and jack. No finess. If finesse looses you need the bare king.

Maarten Baltussen
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#11 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-December-03, 09:47

I think opener can make 1 more try with 4.
Slam doesn't look that great but opener's hand is worth another try.
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#12 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-December-03, 09:51

View Postmsjennifer, on 2017-December-03, 01:01, said:

,the DK is in finesse

You always lose a even if K finesse works as they will cover setting up 10.
So need to find Q. I think you can pick up 4-0 .


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#13 User is online   eagles123 

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Posted 2017-December-03, 09:55

In my opinion this is a clear no blame

Both n and s have unexpected extras the hands fit perfectly and still slam is far from laydown

IMO looking for blame on this is somewhat pointless it’s just one of those things
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#14 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2017-December-03, 10:39

Hi,

I dont know Fantunes style systems and have no real experience with it or similar
systems, hence take the following with lots of salt ...
I would say, that 4H by South is an overbid, X is not really promising that much more than
what was already shown.
Given that South is an unpassed hand, the X is just reopening, it wont be bare min,
but it surely does not show 20+ either. Just lets assume, South has a bal. 18HCP with
spade doubleton, would South really pass it out? Even Spade wastage is possible.
A simple 3H may have given you the chance to show the combined strength, and maybe avoid
some silly 4H contracts.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#15 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-December-03, 11:03

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2017-December-03, 10:39, said:

Hi,

I dont know Fantunes style systems and have no real experience with it or similar
systems, hence take the following with lots of salt ...
I would say, that 4H by South is an overbid, X is not really promising that much more than
what was already shown.


A simple 3H may have given you the chance to show the combined strength, and maybe avoid
some silly 4H contracts.

I think your right X is pretty well just balancing not 20+.
The only difference with Fantunes South needs less to act over 3S. So catching a slam hand isn't as likely. but with 20+ don't need much from south,.

I don't see how you can say 4 is an overbid, what else can be bid. 3 as you suggested isn't legal.
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#16 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2017-December-03, 11:16

View Poststeve2005, on 2017-December-03, 11:03, said:

I think your right X is pretty well just balancing not 20+.
The only difference with Fantunes South needs less to act over 3S. So catching a slam hand isn't as likely. but with 20+ don't need much from south,.

I don't see how you can say 4 is an overbid, what else can be bid. 3 as you suggested isn't legal.

my fault. unfortunatly you are right, still it my be worth a try ...
Since in this case 4H does not promise anything, ... it is touch and go, if opener moves,
and passing it out is not stupid, just cautious.
The alternative to X is 4C describing the shape, but I would take this as 55.

I voted other, they caught N/S with the well timed preempt.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#17 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-December-03, 15:32

View PostLBengtsson, on 2017-December-02, 23:34, said:

decent? google search = acceptable, ok. need not 4-0, but need finesse, split or drop, need endplay, need guess? more lucky than ok. i take 4, not 6


The decent slam is 6 not 6
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#18 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2017-December-04, 01:02

The preempt worked.

IMO, it put enough fog into subsequent bidding because of lack of bidding space to make slam exploration all but impossible. The reopening double shows a good hand but not necessarily a 4 loser 22 pointer.
4 could be bid on virtually anything. There's just too much uncertainty to bid further.
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#19 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-December-04, 02:00

View PostJinksy, on 2017-December-02, 20:53, said:

Also, suppose you managed to bid your way to 6, and E leads the Q. What's your plan?
If you draw trumps, W shows up with JT3, and E discards a couple of nondescript spades.
If you ruff out the second spade, west will follow with the 5 and 3 in some random-looking order.

It's hard for North-South to reach the borderline 6..

In 6, I like LBengtsson's line:
Win A, cash AQ (hoping they break), cash A, cross to K and run 9.
If RHO wins Q, you need a miracle in s.
On the bidding, you should probably choose to play for K singleton offside, rather than Kx doubleton onside.

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#20 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2017-December-04, 06:45

View PostPhilG007, on 2017-December-03, 09:15, said:

What system are you playing that shows this(?) Come to think of it,
the opening poster didn't mention what bidding system was being used.
I was assuming it was SA the dominant system here on BBO

You are right, but there was a hint, 1H was alerted as forcing and explained
as showing 14/15+.
In a standard system context the hand is super max. for a 1H opening,
but it is 2 1/2 suited, i.e. a 1H opener is not completly out of this
world.

If we exchange the 1H opening with an Acol 2H opener, we will have a similar
hard problem, the direct 4H raise will not promise anything except a fit and
some good luck wishes.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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