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Modified Wilkosz Both majors or minors, or spades+minor

#1 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2017-November-25, 05:38

In WJ2000, 2NT shows both minors. A few play a 2NT opening showing +m, usually together with multi and 2=majors, i.e. no way to show both minors. The advantages are:
- +m twice as frequent as +
- with hearts you are less likely to want to play notrump so wrong-siding is less of an issue
- opps get only one cuebid (and that's 3 which is less versatile than 3m)
- 3 is available as a forcing relay

However, Wilkosz with natural 2M openings is more preemptive than Multi. So I thought, maybe we could combine the two. So 2 shows both majors, or both minors, or +m.
Advantages:
- with 32(62), responder can bid 2 without having to fear a +m hand. So the right fit is found when opener has both majors.
- one less hand type to untangle after the 2NT forcing relay to 2
- if opps double 2, responder passes to say "pass if you have diamonds". Maybe redouble is also nonforcing. This puts a bit more pressure on opps as the chance that opener has diamonds is now 50% instead of the 40% in normal Wilkosz.

Of course, it is a disadvantage that we can't play 2 when opener has +m while we still have to be at the 3-level when opener has minors (although we don't prevent opps from bidding 2M when we have both minors).

Any thoughts?
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#2 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2017-November-25, 07:40

View Posthelene_t, on 2017-November-25, 05:38, said:

However, Wilkosz with natural 2M openings is more preemptive than Multi.

In the sense that

2 = Wilkosz
2M = Weak 2M

is more preemptive than

2 = Multi (incl. all Weak 2M type hands)
2M = 5+M5+O (= all Wilkosz type hands),

or more generally?
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#3 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-November-25, 08:06

Can you play this 2 anywhere?
Sarcasm is a state of mind
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#4 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2017-November-25, 09:19

Seems like responder can only then further the preempt for 2N with 1) hearts and/or 2) both minors.
He can only further the 2D preempt holding both spades and one or both minors. Particularly for 2D, you may seldom be able to jack the bidding up very high.
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#5 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2017-November-25, 09:36

View Poststeve2005, on 2017-November-25, 08:06, said:

Can you play this 2anywhere?

It's just a brown sticker convention, and countries like Australia, New Zealand (where Helene currently lives) and Sweden don't follow WBF's (let alone ACBL's) systems policy anyway.
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#6 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2017-November-25, 17:30

View Postnullve, on 2017-November-25, 07:40, said:

In the sense that

2 = Wilkosz
2M = Weak 2M

is more preemptive than

2 = Multi (incl. all Weak 2M type hands)
2M = 5+M5+O (= all Wilkosz type hands),

Yes that's what I mean.
You might speculate on the psychopathology of some posters but hating them seems excessive --- Nige1
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#7 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2017-November-25, 17:48

View Poststraube, on 2017-November-25, 09:19, said:

Seems like responder can only then further the preempt for 2N with 1) hearts and/or 2) both minors.
He can only further the 2D preempt holding both spades and one or both minors. Particularly for 2D, you may seldom be able to jack the bidding up very high.

Yes, it might be better to play 2 as spades+other. And forget about the both minors hands.
You might speculate on the psychopathology of some posters but hating them seems excessive --- Nige1
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#8 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2017-November-25, 20:07

It seems like opposite “normal” wilkosz you need either both majors or a three suited hand to preempt? Here you can raise with spades and either minor (or a three suited hand) so actually you’re in better shape! Of course wilkosz is banned a lot of places, which may be its own issue.
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#9 User is offline   yunling 

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Posted 2017-November-26, 01:13

I think it is better to drop the both minor hands.
For original wilcosz, if opponents fit in a major, you'll know that partner holds the other major which is not the case here.
e.g. 2D-(3H)-?
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#10 User is offline   Kungsgeten 

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Posted 2017-November-27, 16:35

Another alternative could be 2NT as majors or minors, and 2D as major + minor (perhaps evem 5M and 4+m).
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#11 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2017-November-28, 06:07

View Postyunling, on 2017-November-26, 01:13, said:

2D-(3H)-?

Looks like the opening has been a success so far.
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#12 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2017-December-04, 22:48

You could reserve the 3 clubs opening for both minors. To avoid losing the single suited club hand, you then you could play:

2♦ shows both majors, ♠+m or single suited clubs.


Then you can untangle with 2D-2H as pass or correct. Correcting to 2S is spades + minor and 3C is clubs. Full Opening Structure

2C: Weak Clubs hands
2D: 2♦ shows both majors, ♠+m or single suited clubs.
2H: Hearts
2S: Spades
2NT: Hearts plus minor
3C: Both clubs

2NT relay would be:
3C: Clubs
3D: Diamonds and spades
3H: Both majors
3S: Spades and Clubs

Not sure this is good, you lose a bunch of pre-emptive action from your 3C openers. I don't love Wilkosz
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#13 User is offline   DinDIP 

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Posted 2017-December-30, 17:47

View Postawm, on 2017-November-25, 20:07, said:

It seems like opposite “normal” wilkosz you need either both majors or a three suited hand to preempt? Here you can raise with spades and either minor (or a three suited hand) so actually you’re in better shape! Of course wilkosz is banned a lot of places, which may be its own issue.


sfi and I have been playing "normal" Wilkosz for three years and our experience is as awm suggests: it's hard for responder to preempt effectively unless he has both majors or a three-suited hand. The ambiguity about which two suits opener holds also affects us in constructive and competitive auctions. However, our assessment is that it is harder for the opponents to deal with Wilkosz and weak twos than a Multi 2 and 2 and 2 showing that major and a minor, or (as is surprisingly frequent in Australia) 2 showing hearts and another. We think that's true even though opponents are used to dealing with multi-meaning openings, so it's a not (at least not substantially) a lack of familiarity.
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#14 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2017-December-31, 09:29

View PostDinDIP, on 2017-December-30, 17:47, said:

sfi and I have been playing "normal" Wilkosz for three years and our experience is as awm suggests: it's hard for responder to preempt effectively unless he has both majors or a three-suited hand.

Since you're not restricted by the WBF systems policy, how about

2 = 5M5+m
2 = Major Flash

amd either

2 = 5+S5+H (=> 2N = INV+ relay)
2N = 5+D5+C (=> 3 = GF relay)

or

2 = 5+D5+C (=> 2N = INV+ relay)
2N = 5+S5+H (=> 3 = INV+ relay))

?
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#15 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2018-January-07, 20:54

View PostDinDIP, on 2017-December-30, 17:47, said:

sfi and I have been playing "normal" Wilkosz for three years and our experience is as awm suggests: it's hard for responder to preempt effectively unless he has both majors or a three-suited hand. The ambiguity about which two suits opener holds also affects us in constructive and competitive auctions. However, our assessment is that it is harder for the opponents to deal with Wilkosz and weak twos than a Multi 2 and 2 and 2 showing that major and a minor, or (as is surprisingly frequent in Australia) 2 showing hearts and another. We think that's true even though opponents are used to dealing with multi-meaning openings, so it's a not (at least not substantially) a lack of familiarity.


I feel like Wilkosz is 'obviously' good because it's a very well defined opening for hands that are well suited to pre-emption (and the auction + your holding usually removes all ambiguity about what hands people hold where it is nessecary for the partner of the Wilkosz guy to do something at a high level), so it's going to rake it in when it comes up IMP wise.

My only concern is that the frequency isn't high enough, but checking the frequency tables says it's 2%, which is higher than I thought it was going to be!
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