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Grand Aspirations

#1 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2017-November-23, 16:47


The Intercities online teams Aberystwyth v Popovo yesterday featured a board flat in 4H+1 with the same auction in both rooms. I was West and could not help feeling that we had left a shot or two on the course, as they say in golf. Can any readers suggest an improvement on this auction or was it just one of those things?
I prefer to give the lawmakers credit for stating things for a reason. - barmar
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#2 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2017-November-23, 17:05

Preempts work?

East could just punt 6nt which probably makes if either red suit runs?
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#3 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-November-23, 18:05

I can't imagine bidding anything other than pass if W bids 4 you can easily be off 2 aces, if you overcall anything else you have chances.
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#4 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2017-November-23, 18:17

I am surprised at the previous replies - 4 is a strong bid, I'd rather bid 6 than pass as East. Am I being too optimistic?
Obviously we have a recall bias in favour of the assholes. -helene_t
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#5 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-November-23, 18:30

View Postcherdano, on 2017-November-23, 18:17, said:

I am surprised at the previous replies - 4 is a strong bid, I'd rather bid 6 than pass as East. Am I being too optimistic?


I wouldn't be surprised to see a similar hand with a heart suit headed by KQJ10 maybe with an 8th one.
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#6 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-November-23, 22:27

Partner hasn't bid yet so trotting out 4 over the lowest three level pre-empt is a bit agricultural (but the standard bid agreed). Given the opponents have made a vulnerable first in hand pre-empt, I can't see too much wrong with Dbl, especially with 4 card support for both majors. Dbl doesn't necessarily promise support for all suits but it does promise a hand that wishes to compete however and this is a big HOWEVER Dbl. followed by a suit bid (especially if the opponents compete too) is open to all sorts of interpretations. That's the problem defining the 4-7-2-0 shape afterwards. Even with an experienced partnership this will probably be fraught with difficulty given the limited space, and the expectation that partner is likely to respond in s.

On this hand Dbl. could well work, but that is resulting seeing all four hands, so yes I have to agree that pre-empts are sometimes highly effective.
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#7 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-November-24, 03:25

View PostThe_Badger, on 2017-November-23, 22:27, said:

Partner hasn't bid yet so trotting out 4 over the lowest three level pre-empt is a bit agricultural (but the standard bid agreed). Given the opponents have made a vulnerable first in hand pre-empt, I can't see too much wrong with Dbl, especially with 4 card support for both majors. Dbl doesn't necessarily promise support for all suits but it does promise a hand that wishes to compete however and this is a big HOWEVER Dbl. followed by a suit bid (especially if the opponents compete too) is open to all sorts of interpretations. That's the problem defining the 4-7-2-0 shape afterwards. Even with an experienced partnership this will probably be fraught with difficulty given the limited space, and the expectation that partner is likely to respond in s.

On this hand Dbl. could well work, but that is resulting seeing all four hands, so yes I have to agree that pre-empts are sometimes highly effective.


What do you expect partner to do with say Qxx, Qxx, xxx, QJ109 if you double ? This hand is not easy.

I think I'd bid 3 to leave spades in the equation.
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#8 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2017-November-24, 07:24

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-November-23, 18:30, said:

I wouldn't be surprised to see a similar hand with a heart suit headed by KQJ10 maybe with an 8th one.

Sure that is possible. But even opposite that hand, slam is quite playable. And I think the odds favour partner having some useful highcards, along with a doubleton diamond.
Obviously we have a recall bias in favour of the assholes. -helene_t
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#9 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-November-24, 07:29

View Postcherdano, on 2017-November-24, 07:24, said:

Sure that is possible. But even opposite that hand, slam is quite playable. And I think the odds favour partner having some useful highcards, along with a doubleton diamond.


Sorry, I was thinking similar but not identical hand, was visualising say AJx, KQJ10xxxx, (x), x(x) (wouldn't you overcall 4 ?)
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#10 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-November-24, 09:15

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-November-24, 07:29, said:

Sorry, I was thinking similar but not identical hand, was visualising say AJx, KQJ10xxxx, (x), x(x) (wouldn't you overcall 4 ?)


4 is necessarily a wide-range bid. There are too many hands to describe and too little space. That's why opponents pre-empt.

I must admit that, if I have a seven-card suit I usually try to plat in it rather than search for a 4-4 fit. So I agree with 4. Passing 4 with the East cards looks normal. Yes, if I can see both hands I bid differently, but 4 looks like the most likely contract.
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#11 User is offline   Joe_Old 

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Posted 2017-November-24, 09:54

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-November-24, 07:29, said:

Sorry, I was thinking similar but not identical hand, was visualising say AJx, KQJ10xxxx, (x), x(x) (wouldn't you overcall 4 ?)


Assuming a 2/1 or some other standard American system, Cyberyeti's example hand is about the minimum I'd expect for a 4 bid: strong, showing 7+ tricks and setting as trump. I disagree with the actual deal/auction because West is too weak - it's closer to a pre-empt over a pre-empt than the strong hand a jump shift should promise.

Given that, I'd bid 3 with the actual West hand, allowing East to get into the auction with any reasonable collection.

Given the actual auction, East's pass opposite a (supposedly) powerful jump shift is way too timid.
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#12 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-November-24, 16:23

What does a bid of 4C/D mean if bid directly over 3C ? Could it be suggesting both majors with longer H/S respectively?
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#13 User is offline   Palladian 

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Posted 2017-November-24, 16:48

I'm surprised that in this company no-one has a defence to PEs. They happen so often, particularly with random deals and especially in the sort of company I keep. If you play * - pens & 3D - TO, once responder raises D (4 stronger or 5 to play) then it is a question of which route you take and judgement. I do not bid H straight away for two reasons. The suit is not solid enough and there are 4spades.
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#14 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2017-November-24, 16:49

View Postmsjennifer, on 2017-November-24, 16:23, said:

What does a bid of 4C/D mean if bid directly over 3C ? Could it be suggesting both majors with longer H/S respectively?

4C would be both majors and 4D would be diamonds and hearts in our methods. With spades and diamonds, you have to just bid 3S or 4S. I think that is a fairly common treatment for those playing leaping and non leaping Michaels.

Most experts I have spoken to replicate the auction we had. One said, "I would not reach a grand on the East hand even if I had seen the West hand, as, if I did, people would know that I had seen the West hand!"
I prefer to give the lawmakers credit for stating things for a reason. - barmar
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#15 User is offline   CodeByJim 

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Posted 2017-November-24, 19:11

Let's analyze this by what you know as opposed to what you hope. S opens 3!c indicating 9 hcp. You as West hold 13 hcp. 9+13=22 hcp leaving 18 unaccounted for. Using the rule of reasonable estimation, the other 2 hands hold 9 hcp apiece. Therefor, you can estimate that WE has 22 hcp, not enough for game, but easily enough for a contract at the 3 level. W should bid 3 !h. If N bids 3 !s, West knows he has 13+ hcp leaving your partner with 5 hcp. If N passes your estimation of his hand remains at 9 hcp. Now it is up to your partner to begin telling you about his hand. With a very strong 6 card !d suit headed by AKQ, E must bid 4!d. Since E went to the 4 level you know your team has 25+ hcp. Add the fact that New Minor Forcing also indicates a strong hand. South has no choice but to pass as he knows that his team only has 12 hcp between them. Back to W. Since your 3!h bid showed a long/strong !h suit, you should now show your good !s suit at the 4 level. N passes and E supports the !s bid at the 5 level. S passes and W shows his !d support at the 6 level to which E sets the contract at 6!s. No muss, no fuss! Just simple addition and subtraction. And by the way, I don't take the 4!h bid after the 3 !c bid as anything other than a close out bid, and a poor one at that.
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#16 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2017-November-24, 21:46

View Postlamford, on 2017-November-23, 16:47, said:

The Intercities online teams Aberystwyth v Popovo yesterday featured a board flat in 4H+1 with the same auction in both rooms. I was West and could not help feeling that we had left a shot or two on the course, as they say in golf. Can any readers suggest an improvement on this auction or was it just one of those things?


4 is an awful bid. It shows self sufficient suit and not much sympathy to play in another suit. He has neither of them.
For the pessimism of East, I agree with Cherdano.
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#17 User is online   miamijd 

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Posted 2017-November-24, 21:47

A bit unfortunate, if you ask me.

West has a choice between 3H and 4H. Double is not good at all, Badger; partner will pass with a lot of hands where 3cX comes rolling home and you can make 4H.

I personally prefer 4H to show a much better hand (I might possibly make that call if my heart spots were a lot better, like AKT9xxx), and generally a hand that wants to play H regardless. I would bid 3H. Then I think you can get to a small slam easily enough, probably 6D. Grand is much harder.

Over 4H, it's tougher. If you play it as wide-ranging, then I sympathize with East's pass, although 6D is possible (you won't like that if partner has JTc and a d void or even 4711). If you play it as a very strong hand, as I do, then I think you can pretty much force slam somewhere. Maybe 5D (forcing) and if partner continues with 5H, try 5S.

Cheers,
Mike
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#18 User is online   miamijd 

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Posted 2017-November-24, 22:28

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#19 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2017-November-25, 05:12

Obviously it is easy to solve this puzzle when you can see all four hands, but I canít see myself passing 4H on the east hand. Just a thought, but how about 5NT; pick a slam. Then, if west is suitably inspired he might find 6S.

Of course you might still find yourself in 6H losing a trump and an ace, but that seems unlikely as west has got to have something for his 4H bid and it certainly isnít diamonds. Also, if all west can do is repeat his hearts east, again if feeling suitable inspired, might try 6NT, which should certainly role home if hearts are solid and would have chances if they werenít.

Having said all that I suspect I would have just raised 4H to six, for a terrible score.
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#20 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2017-November-25, 11:18

View PostMrAce, on 2017-November-24, 21:46, said:

4 is an awful bid.

It is very easy to say this without suggesting an alternative. 3H will get the dummy opposite KQx x KQxxx xxxx. And double will get partner to pass with KQx xxx KQx QJTx. I surveyed the 4 top players in the London Superleague and they all thought 4H was automatic. Quite frankly, other bids are awful.
I prefer to give the lawmakers credit for stating things for a reason. - barmar
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