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Choose your poison

#1 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-November-20, 15:15



Are you 100% confident what 4N is undiscussed ?

Are you having another go and if so with what ?

(If you can't read the explanation on the diagram, 2H is 5-5 H and another suit, 5-9 points)
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#2 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2017-November-20, 16:19

i will exit quietly. rho has bid 4h with not many hcp so they rate to have a lot of hearts or if not so many hearts maybe the rest of the missing hcp. If rho has lots of heart p is probably short yet they bid only 4s. Bad breaks may also play a significant part in keeping us from making slam. Sometimes preempts work and i am a big chicken bwakkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk. BTW i would assume 4n was rkc for spades since I would have assumed 4n was for the minors over 4h. 4n natural is just too small a target for me over 4h.
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#3 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-November-20, 16:50

Difficult problem. A reluctant pass for me too.

4NT is RKCB for us, but no good holding 4 key cards with two fast diamond losers. I'm less sure what 5C shows - I feel that it should be a cue-bid, but ...

5S tends to imply 2 heart losers. So I'm only left with 5H to try for slam, but I'm going to take the low road on this one.
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#4 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2017-November-20, 18:20

partner promised nothing and I would only be mildly surprised if 4 is too high with bad breaks possible.
When a deaf person goes to court is it still called a hearing?
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#5 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-November-20, 18:33

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-November-20, 15:15, said:


Are you 100% confident what 4N is undiscussed ?
Are you having another go and if so with what ?
(If you can't read the explanation on the diagram, 2H is 5-5 H and another suit, 5-9 points)

I rank
  • Pass = NAT. Your double was T/O, so partner might have Q J x x x x x x x x x x x or worse.
  • 4N = RKC. You expect partner to recognise it as such. A brave gamble.
  • 5 = CUE. Perhaps directing attention to the need for help in the minors?
  • 5 = ASK. Usually asks for control.

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#6 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-November-20, 18:46

My thoughts were these. (It was cross imp teams of 8 btw)

The guy not on lead has hearts and diamonds, but the guy on the right has no reason to know that since I have 5 clubs, I'd bet my house on getting a heart lead, and any club finesse is likely to work.

Partner probably has a stiff heart, something as bad as Qxxxxx, x, xxx, J9x will probably make 6 and if the club holding is Qxx it definitely will on a heart lead.

So I made the simplest slam invite, I bid 6 and invited partner to try to make it.

I'll let others comment before revealing what happened
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#7 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-November-20, 19:14

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-November-20, 18:46, said:

So I made the simplest slam invite, I bid 6 and invited partner to try to make it.

I'll let others comment before revealing what happened

You need partner to have diamond control and probably both black Queens and reasonable breaks. Partner could easily have this hand and not make a move.

So I don't see a choice either bid it or don't be right or wrong.


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#8 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-November-20, 21:04

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-November-20, 18:46, said:

My thoughts were these. (It was cross imp teams of 8 btw)

The guy not on lead has hearts and diamonds, but the guy on the right has no reason to know that since I have 5 clubs, I'd bet my house on getting a heart lead, and any club finesse is likely to work.

Partner probably has a stiff heart, something as bad as Qxxxxx, x, xxx, J9x will probably make 6 and if the club holding is Qxx it definitely will on a heart lead.

So I made the simplest slam invite, I bid 6 and invited partner to try to make it.

I'll let others comment before revealing what happened


It's really tough. I like the derring-do(ness) of 6 but, in my view, it alerts the opposition that you have control. Taking them for granted that they won't find the (potentially) killer lead is, well, taking them for granted. To me, the RKCB route followed by 5 is flawed - how is partner going to interpret that? - or cueing 5 directly leaves partner on a guess.

In these situations I work on the cards that are needed for slam to make. Q or Q aren't essential (assuming distribution) but either A or K most likely is. One of two cards amongst three hands sounds fair odds to bid 6 but I guess it was the wrong bid :(
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#9 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2017-November-21, 04:58

it's a totally clear pass. yes you might make slam, but that's life. insert pre-empt related cliche here.
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#10 User is online   sfi 

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Posted 2017-November-21, 05:32

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-November-20, 15:15, said:

Are you 100% confident what 4N is undiscussed ?


It is most likely a key-card ask. I would be very surprised if partner took (or meant) it as anything else knowing it is undiscussed.

Quote

Are you having another go and if so with what ?


Like everyone else, no. If you find a playable spot after the opponents pre-empt you, you need to have a pretty good reason to disturb it. A flat 21-count opposite a partner that hasn't shown anything isn't good enough to make it percentage.
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#11 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2017-November-21, 12:22

Pass for me also. Partner's 4 could be made on anything and there is no way to know if the 4 raise is pre-emptive or what.
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#12 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-November-22, 16:27

View Postrmnka447, on 2017-November-21, 12:22, said:

Pass for me also. Partner's 4 could be made on anything and there is no way to know if the 4 raise is pre-emptive or what.


I disagree 4 could be anything, it WON'T be flat or he won't remove the X, just try to set it.

In fact partner's hand was Qxxxxx, x, Axx, xxx, they led a heart as anticipated, draw trumps A, heart ruff, club to 10 and that was +980.
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#13 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2017-November-23, 11:01

And another Yes No from me.
It is a decisive "no", because I do feel my double is forcing if partner does not have good hearts and controls, and partner likely has nothing.
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#14 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-November-23, 11:15

View PostfromageGB, on 2017-November-23, 11:01, said:

And another Yes No from me.
It is a decisive "no", because I do feel my double is forcing if partner does not have good hearts and controls, and partner likely has nothing.


Do you feel partner removes on a flat heap ? Your style in this situation will largely dictate whether you think moving is an option.
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#15 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2017-November-24, 08:21

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-November-23, 11:15, said:

Do you feel partner removes on a flat heap ? Your style in this situation will largely dictate whether you think moving is an option.

I'm sure my partners will remove the double if they have nothing significant to contribute to a defence, as my double is not penalty but a passable takeout. A flat heap with 4 spades will bid. Your partnerships obviously have a different understanding.
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#16 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2017-November-24, 21:48

PASS
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"

"Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, but also by looking into this matter in a different perspective and without being condemning of one's view's and by trying to make it objectified, and by considering each and every one's valid opinion, I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say."





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#17 User is offline   RD350LC 

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Posted 2017-November-29, 12:34

View PostTramticket, on 2017-November-20, 16:50, said:

Difficult problem. A reluctant pass for me too.

4NT is RKCB for us, but no good holding 4 key cards with two fast diamond losers. I'm less sure what 5C shows - I feel that it should be a cue-bid, but ...

5S tends to imply 2 heart losers. So I'm only left with 5H to try for slam, but I'm going to take the low road on this one.

I would pass as well-but not willingly. Pre-empts work, that is why I do them. And the opponents with their ^&#(^%_ pre-empts.
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#18 User is offline   foobar 

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Posted 2017-November-30, 19:22

Pass and hope to make 4...if pard holds the magical hand...c'est-la-vie and payoff to preempts.
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