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How do you bid this grand slam?

#21Lovera

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Posted 2017-November-08, 15:15

For me that is not a problem having indicate, with my variation of RKB with a void (see RKB 3041 in "Intermediate bridge hands") how to do: after the RKB( 5 means 2 keys w/o Q or 1 key plus a void w/o Q. Then 5NT(=all keys)-6(=King), 6 asks and 7 is the answer with a void.
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#22aawk

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Posted 2017-November-08, 18:05

If to analyse a bidding sequence always only look at the first bid which was wrong.

In this case 3nt was way to strong and reaching grand slam is difficult but imo that was not the first wrong bid.

Holding a 6-5 pattern and the 6 card is lower than the 5 card you need to bid twice revers to show you had a 5x6x pattern.

Because the hand is not strong enough to bid twice revers its better to handle it as 5-5 pattern and I would start with 1 instead of 1. Another reason is that it is more easy to show the difference in the strength of your hand.

if it goes 1 - 1 - pass - 3nt - ?? your only bid to show a 5x6x pattern is 4

3nt should show 12-14(15) HCP with a stopper in and makes it impossible to show your 5x6x pattern with slam interest if you want to bid 4 telling your partner I rather play 4 or 5 then 3nt.

if it goes 1 - 2 - 3nt - ??

3nt means the same and now (in most cases) also denied a 3+ card so you can bid 4 as a strong 5x5x pattern and 5 telling your partner I rather play 5 then 3nt.

When to open the lower 6 card and bid twice revers is a matter of opinion.

Imo it should be any 18+ HCP or 16-17 HCP with no lost points in the side suits.

AKxxx Q AKxxxx x I would open 1

AKQxx x AKxxxx x I would open 1

A tip for better bidding is to agree what the range of your shut out bids are.

So what is the range for a jump to 3nt or what shows a direct raise in partners major openings bid (etc.).
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#23miamijd

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Posted 2017-November-08, 20:38

aawk, on 2017-November-08, 18:05, said:

If to analyse a bidding sequence always only look at the first bid which was wrong.

In this case 3nt was way to strong and reaching grand slam is difficult but imo that was not the first wrong bid.

Holding a 6-5 pattern and the 6 card is lower than the 5 card you need to bid twice revers to show you had a 5x6x pattern.

Because the hand is not strong enough to bid twice revers its better to handle it as 5-5 pattern and I would start with 1 instead of 1. Another reason is that it is more easy to show the difference in the strength of your hand.

....

Opening 1D doesn't stop you from getting to a grand. 7D is not that difficult to reach.

As for your point about not being strong enough to reverse, that's a matter of partnership agreement. A lot of partnerships play that with 6m/5M and a decent hand, you are allowed to open 1m and then bid the M twice. I have found this method works quite well.

This is actually a very strong hand if partner fits one of your suits (a 4 loser hand). If he has a 6-10 hand with nothing but a pile of hearts, you might get to a poor spot, but 98% of the time, nothing bad will happen, and if he fits you, you'll find games you otherwise wouldn't.

For example, let's say you open 1S, your partner bids 1NT (forcing), and you rebid 2D. What is partner supposed to do with:

Q JT9xx Jxxx Axx

I think everyone would pass pretty quickly. Yet 5D is gin.

Cheers,
mike
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#24aawk

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Posted 2017-November-08, 23:25

miamijd, on 2017-November-08, 20:38, said:

Opening 1D doesn't stop you from getting to a grand. 7D is not that difficult to reach.

As for your point about not being strong enough to reverse, that's a matter of partnership agreement. A lot of partnerships play that with 6m/5M and a decent hand, you are allowed to open 1m and then bid the M twice. I have found this method works quite well.

This is actually a very strong hand if partner fits one of your suits (a 4 loser hand). If he has a 6-10 hand with nothing but a pile of hearts, you might get to a poor spot, but 98% of the time, nothing bad will happen, and if he fits you, you'll find games you otherwise wouldn't.

For example, let's say you open 1S, your partner bids 1NT (forcing), and you rebid 2D. What is partner supposed to do with:

Q JT9xx Jxxx Axx

I think everyone would pass pretty quickly. Yet 5D is gin.

Cheers,
mike

Your argument that reaching grand slam is easy is based on knowing that 3nt was bid with a lot of points.

If in this bidding sequence 3nt shows 18+ HCP you are right but that is a wasted agreement because how often will this specific situation happens.

If 1 hold Q JT9xx Jxxx Axx I would not bid 1nt but wait for a re openings double from partner (or support with 2 if you think the hand is not strong enough for that) and in this case he would not do that and bid to show a uneven pattern and then I would support with a jump and your partner knows you had a penalty pass for and good diamond support.
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#25msjennifer

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Posted 2017-November-09, 03:35

Cyberyeti, on 2017-November-08, 04:39, said:

This is fine if you play 2/1 but how would you feel playing a system like Acol where a 2/1 doesn't promise another bid and partner has say x, KQ10xx, AJxx, xxx and you play in 2.

The difference is that if you open 1 and partner bids 2 and passes 2, if you play this in sensible fashion he WILL NOT EVER have 4 spades and you will have an extra card in the suit you play in.

Do you mean to suggest that responder can not have AQX in spades when he responds 2C over a 1D opening? is he going to bid 2S over a rebid Of 2D? If so,it is stretching far. unless he knows that you hold a good five card spade suit!
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#26Cyberyeti

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Posted 2017-November-09, 05:53

msjennifer, on 2017-November-09, 03:35, said:

Do you mean to suggest that responder can not have AQX in spades when he responds 2C over a 1D opening? is he going to bid 2S over a rebid Of 2D? If so,it is stretching far. unless he knows that you hold a good five card spade suit!

No, read what I said, you won't play in a 6-1 fit with a 5-4 fit available, you may miss a 5-3, what I was saying was that if you have 5+/4 and are not going to bid again on a 1-2-2 auction, you respond 1 instead, but you could play in a 5-1 spade fit with a 6-4 diamond fit available if you open 1 and partner responds 2.
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#27nekthen

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Posted 2017-November-09, 06:20

P_Marlowe, on 2017-November-08, 09:00, said:

Why has South shown 65? Assuming 2H did not promise diamond support, North never denied having a heart stopper.
Hence, South just makes a forced waiting bid.
If 2H is just a general force, than 3NT over 2S showes the hand, a hand too strong for a direct 3NT bid.
I am willing to accept a seq. that makes a 2NT bid over 2S, ..., 2NT is certainly GF, and than you may proceed
the way you described.

With kind regards
Marlowe

South has many available bids. The "say nothing bid" is 3, therefore 3 shows a 5th and assuming normal natural bidding 6
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#28miamijd

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Posted 2017-November-09, 11:00

Your argument that reaching grand slam is easy is based on knowing that 3nt was bid with a lot of points.

No, it wasn't. 3NT is an awful bid. Start with 2H.

If in this bidding sequence 3nt shows 18+ HCP you are right but that is a wasted agreement because how often will this specific situation happens.

It doesn't. And it shouldn't be bid.

If 1 hold Q JT9xx Jxxx Axx I would not bid 1nt but wait for a re openings double from partner (or support with 2 if you think the hand is not strong enough for that) and in this case he would not do that and bid to show a uneven pattern and then I would support with a jump and your partner knows you had a penalty pass for and good diamond support.

Huh? My response was to your suggestion that 1S is the proper opening. You would pass a 1S opener with the following 8-count:

Q JT9xx Jxxx Axx ?

I sure hope not. I didn't mean after a 2H overcall; I meant in an uncontested auction. The point was to illustrate that a 1D opener can work better on these sorts of hands, provided you have the right agreement with partner.

Cheers,
Mike
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#29aawk

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Posted 2017-November-09, 13:02

Huh? My response was to your suggestion that 1S is the proper opening. You would pass a 1S opener with the following 8-count:

Q JT9xx Jxxx Axx ?

I sure hope not. I didn't mean after a 2H overcall; I meant in an uncontested auction. The point was to illustrate that a 1D opener can work better on these sorts of hands, provided you have the right agreement with partner.

Cheers,
Mike
[/quote]

Ok I misunderstood,

so you mean what to bid after 1 - pass - 1nt - pass - 2 - pass - ??

I would bid 3 being a invite with 8-9 HCP (being a agreement because 2 has a range from 11-17).

If I hold 10-11 with the same hand only 2nt as invite available.
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#30hamish32

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Posted 2017-November-09, 13:57

3NT by responder is awful.

We have the agreement that 2NT shows 4 card support in an invite + hand. While 2!H is an invite + with 3 cards.

Over 2!H opener can bid 2!S this must show 5 since 2!H denied 4 card M.

Now grand should be no problem. I prefer 7!D to 7!S
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#31Cyberyeti

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Posted 2017-November-09, 14:25

hamish32, on 2017-November-09, 13:57, said:

3NT by responder is awful.

We have the agreement that 2NT shows 4 card support in an invite + hand. While 2!H is an invite + with 3 cards.

Over 2!H opener can bid 2!S this must show 5 since 2!H denied 4 card M.

Now grand should be no problem. I prefer 7!D to 7!S

Why doesn't 2 simply show a 4243 minimum hand with no heart stop ? (if you play strong NT)
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#32hamish32

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Posted 2017-November-14, 20:28

Cyberyeti, on 2017-November-09, 14:25, said:

Why doesn't 2 simply show a 4243 minimum hand with no heart stop ? (if you play strong NT)

We do play weak NT. However when playing strong NT I would play the same methods here and with 4S I would prefer X than 2H and with 5S I would bid 1S rather than 2H. So opener does not need to worry about a 4 card S holding once responder bids 2H - getting the major across has to come before supporting D. This means 2S by opener after the 2H limit raise shows 5 cards in S.

1D - (1H) - 2H - (P)
2S - (P) - 3NT- (P)
4C - (P) - 4D - (P)
5H - (P) - 5S - (P)
5NT- (P) - 7S

2H limit or better 3D
2S 5 cards in S
3NT serious slam try in spades (opener has 65 shape)
4C/D first or second round cue
5H exclusion blackwood
5S 3 or 0
5NT do you have the Q (responder must have 3 not zero to bid 3NT)
7S yes I have the Q
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#33Cyberyeti

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Posted 2017-November-15, 06:15

hamish32, on 2017-November-14, 20:28, said:

We do play weak NT. However when playing strong NT I would play the same methods here and with 4S I would prefer X than 2H and with 5S I would bid 1S rather than 2H. So opener does not need to worry about a 4 card S holding once responder bids 2H - getting the major across has to come before supporting D. This means 2S by opener after the 2H limit raise shows 5 cards in S.

The shape I gave was a poor example, how about AJxx, 5432, AQx, xx where we'd certainly bid 2 rather than X as our takeout doubles tend to be both unbid rather than just spades.
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#34hamish32

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Posted 2017-November-15, 20:24

Cyberyeti, on 2017-November-15, 06:15, said:

The shape I gave was a poor example, how about AJxx, 5432, AQx, xx where we'd certainly bid 2 rather than X as our takeout doubles tend to be both unbid rather than just spades.

I don't think X showing both unbid is the best treatment. I know many people play this way however a more modern treatment is that X shows 4 cards in the unbid major. So with this example hand I would still X.

6D and 5S is such an uncommon hand where as we regularly find a 44 fit if we stretch to X any time we have 4S.
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#35Cyberyeti

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Posted 2017-November-16, 05:22

hamish32, on 2017-November-15, 20:24, said:

I don't think X showing both unbid is the best treatment. I know many people play this way however a more modern treatment is that X shows 4 cards in the unbid major. So with this example hand I would still X.

6D and 5S is such an uncommon hand where as we regularly find a 44 fit if we stretch to X any time we have 4S.

Both treatments have their merits, it may make a difference that 1m openers will be 4+ card suits for me.

Exactly, 6/5 is rare enough that I don't make too many concessions to it in my system.
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#36pescetom

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Posted 2017-December-09, 15:41

miamijd, on 2017-November-08, 13:54, said:

What is so wrong with 2H over 1H? Yes, in theory, it suggests 4D, but we do have AJx in diamonds, and if partner is minimum, he's going to be looking for NT anyway.

After that, opener ought to recognize that if his partner has a limit raise in diamonds, his hand is absolutely HUGE. It's a 4-loser hand, so if partner has no H waste, even a limit raise should offer a good play for slam (Qx Jxxx Axxx Axx and six is icy; even with xx QJxx Axxx Axx it's still on a hook).

Opener needs to show that with a jump to 4H, showing a H void. Forget about spades. If partner had four of them, he'd have made a negative X. If you're going for slam, a 10-card suit (partner has shown 4) beats a possible 8-card suit.

After that, a reasonable auction playing very standard 2/1 methods would be:

1D (1H) 2H
4H(1) 4NT(2)
5D(3) 5H(4)
5S(5) 5NT(6)
6C(7) 7D(8)

(1) Good hand; h void; at least five diamonds and likely 6 (could be 4054)
(2) key card
(3) one key (you've already shown the H void)
(5) Qd and Ks
(6) I'm interested in a grand; what else can you tell me? (Note: not "pick a slam" here; diamonds is agreed)
(7) I have the Kc; does that help?
(8) Sure does

Excellent analysis Mike.
We are not experts yet but I would have bid 2H and I'm pretty sure my partner would have shown the void.
My only doubt is about the necessity of steps (6) and (7): I think I would have called 7D after (5).
I have 18 points, I know opps have the useless AKQh which is 9 points, leaving 13 points between opps and my partner who opened in first seat.
He can be a bit erratic after a beer, but not enough to open 1D with 10 points and no AJ, so I figure the opps with at most the black Jacks.
Or am I missing something here?
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#37Fluffy

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Posted 2017-December-11, 13:15

Dinarius, on 2017-November-07, 03:09, said:

...over to you

If North bids 3NT, I bid 4 as South. I would now take 4NT by North as key-card agreeing

Easy to bid 6, but can you bid seven?

D.

Bidding using my system:

1-2NT
3-3
4-4NT
........7

Bidding using what I think is your system:

1-(1)-2
2-3
4-4
4NT....
.......

7

Bidding using your first 2 bids:

1-(1)-3NT-all pass
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#38MrAce

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Posted 2017-December-12, 04:07

Dinarius, on 2017-November-07, 03:09, said:

Easy to bid 6, but can you bid seven?

D.

Not sure to be honest.

Dinarius, on 2017-November-07, 03:09, said:

If North bids 3NT, I bid 4 as South. I would now take 4NT by North as key-card agreeing
D.

North bidding 3 NT is much more serious problem for this partnership than missing this grandslam, or how the auction goes on from there, imho.

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