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How do you bid this grand slam?

#1 User is offline   Dinarius 

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Posted 2017-November-07, 03:09

...over to you


If North bids 3NT, I bid 4 as South. I would now take 4NT by North as key-card agreeing

Easy to bid 6, but can you bid seven?

D.
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#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-November-07, 03:35

We can disentangle this but probably bid 7. The key to making this simple is that we play 1-(1)-2 as still inverted so 1-(1)-2 is a 3 card diamond raise unlimited with nothing better to bid. After a few more bids, south voidwoods then makes a bid which asks for Q.
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#3 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-November-07, 08:04

3NT with the North cards is a terrible bid
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#4 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2017-November-07, 10:43

View PostThe_Badger, on 2017-November-07, 08:04, said:

3NT with the North cards is a terrible bid

Maybe. But without Cyber's convenient 2 treatment we probably would have made that horrible bid too -- not liking it, but at least it shows a hand which wants to play in 3nt opposite most routine hands with which Partner would open 1.

Over that 4 rebid, Responder IMO should try 5. This must imply pointed fit(s). If opener now bids 5, North can just take the shot counting twelve tricks if Opener just has a nine-count in the pointed suits and taking a chance that Opener has a 12-count or one more Diamond.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#5 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-November-07, 13:31

View Postaguahombre, on 2017-November-07, 10:43, said:

3NT with the North cards is a terrible bid Badger says. And Maybe is your response.


Apologies for saying this but Maybe doesn't even enter the equation as far as I am concerned: 3NT with the North cards is a truly terrible bid. Even without Cyberyeti's personalised system, North can always bid 2 (assuming this isn't a limited free bid) or even Dbl. to keep things ticking along.
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#6 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2017-November-07, 14:10

View PostThe_Badger, on 2017-November-07, 08:04, said:

3NT with the North cards is a terrible bid

18 points is too much to bid 3NT after PD opens and you have many other bids possible to force.
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#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-November-07, 15:00

View Postneilkaz, on 2017-November-07, 14:10, said:

18 points is too much to bid 3NT after PD opens and you have many other bids possible to force.


I agree, would double rather than bid 3N if I didn't have 2 available, not sure how many spades I'd bid with the south hand if N doubled (or 3/4 if E passes/bids 2 which must be a void).
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#8 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2017-November-07, 16:28

With a 4 QT 18 HCP point hand (and virtually all the points in primes outside of the suit), I don't think 3 NT is right. Without any special agreements, I'm calling double and see what partner will do next.

The interesting question is "What should opener rebid after the double?"

Opener does have a very distributional, but minimum value opening hand with a void. I just don't see the hand as quite strong enough for a cue so I'd probably opt for a very encouraging 3 .
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#9 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2017-November-07, 16:29

Goodness knows what you're meant to call with North. I guess X is the best option, attempting to bid 3NT later. East might then raise to 3H.

I can see two auctions from there depending on how brave South is:

1D-(1H)-X-(3H)
4H (agreeing spades implied by negX, good hand, heart control)-4NT (RKC in S)

then either
6H (1 or 3 with heart void)-7D (natural offer to play)

or
5C (1 or 4), and North probably signs off in 6D unless he has a fancy way to ask how good South's heart control is (e.g. 5H).

It's a very tricky hand, because North can never show his wonderful strength and controls, and South wants to be captain to bid voidwood but North is going to keep taking control in order to prevent the auction dying out in game.

ahydra
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#10 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2017-November-07, 21:10

View PostThe_Badger, on 2017-November-07, 13:31, said:

Apologies for saying this but Maybe doesn't even enter the equation as far as I am concerned: 3NT with the North cards is a truly terrible bid. Even without Cyberyeti's personalised system, North can always bid 2 (assuming this isn't a limited free bid) or even Dbl. to keep things ticking along.

Quote someone to your heart's content, but don't put your own words in a fake quote attributed to someone else. Also, no matter how bad 3nt was, totally doesn't matter on this hand. As shown above, once Opener rebids 4 Spades, the Grand is fairly easy because North can count tricks.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#11 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-November-08, 00:49

We never suppress a rebiddable major suit headed by at least two of the four top honors.and would have opened the hand 1Spade as there are easy rebids,Oening one diamond and if,partner 2 clubs what now.?a tame 2 Diamonds? Or 2S considered by
many a slight overbid with only a meagre 12 HCP?
However,in the present auction I “ personally “ feel that a 3 NT bid by North is just not there,A 2Heart bid which we play as “at least game forcing with a desire to play in NT or just asking opener to describe his hand if unbalanced “ will perhaps result in a heart void cue bid from North in a good partnership and they may reach the Grand in due course.
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#12 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-November-08, 04:39

View Postmsjennifer, on 2017-November-08, 00:49, said:

We never suppress a rebiddable major suit headed by at least two of the four top honors.and would have opened the hand 1Spade as there are easy rebids,Oening one diamond and if,partner 2 clubs what now.?a tame 2 Diamonds? Or 2S considered by
many a slight overbid with only a meagre 12 HCP?


This is fine if you play 2/1 but how would you feel playing a system like Acol where a 2/1 doesn't promise another bid and partner has say x, KQ10xx, AJxx, xxx and you play in 2.

The difference is that if you open 1 and partner bids 2 and passes 2, if you play this in sensible fashion he WILL NOT EVER have 4 spades and you will have an extra card in the suit you play in.
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#13 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-November-08, 05:52

View Postaguahombre, on 2017-November-07, 21:10, said:

Quote someone to your heart's content, but don't put your own words in a fake quote attributed to someone else. Also, no matter how bad 3nt was, totally doesn't matter on this hand. As shown above, once Opener rebids 4 Spades, the Grand is fairly easy because North can count tricks.


I'm not sure what your first sentence means, but I'm not going to get into a slanging match over this, and given many other commentators agree too that 3NT is not the right bid with the North cards I will prove it.

The original poster, Dinarius, stated "If North bids 3NT..." and having posted this in the Expert-Class bridge forum, I assume Dinarius welcomes expert comments. And plenty of my fellow expert commentators are of the same opinion as I that this is the incorrect way of attempting to reach the slam.

Let's say the South hand is instead KJxx void KQ10xx Kxxx what can you bid over North's 3NT then? Nothing. But you miss out on a 6 contract.

Obviously the correct bidding sequence is a priority. That is stating the obvious. The OP, Dinarius, did state "If North bids 3NT..." and it is only a suggestion on his part, or alternatively this might have actually happened on the hand, we're not to know, but we are also at liberty to point out that realistically it is a poor choice of bid, and South only advances beyond 3NT as he has 5062 shape as opposed to the 4054 shape given above.
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#14 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2017-November-08, 06:25

View PostDinarius, on 2017-November-07, 03:09, said:

...over to you


If North bids 3NT, I bid 4 as South. I would now take 4NT by North as key-card agreeing

Easy to bid 6, but can you bid seven?

D.


I prefer not to bid dbl without 4, but 2 looks ok. 2 3 (another force) 3
Now what? South has shown 5 and 6 and we are surely in a GF situation. North can therefore bid 4 to set as trumps, so 4 must be a cue bid agreeing as trumps. Now 4 by South must be a void, as he would have bid 2N, holding A, 4N 5 5N (all key cards are held) 7

The key bid is that 4 shows a void, allowing 5N to be bid, without the A

I will be showing this one to my regular partners!
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#15 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2017-November-08, 06:25

View PostDinarius, on 2017-November-07, 03:09, said:

...over to you


If North bids 3NT, I bid 4 as South. I would now take 4NT by North as key-card agreeing

Easy to bid 6, but can you bid seven?

D.


I prefer not to bid dbl without 4, but 2 looks ok. 2 3 (another force) 3
Now what? South has shown 5 and 6 and we are surely in a GF situation. North can therefore bid 4 to set as trumps, so 4 must be a cue bid agreeing as trumps. Now 4 by South must be a void, as he would have bid 2N, holding A, 4N 5 5N (all key cards are held) 7

The key bid is that 4 shows a void, allowing 5N to be bid, without the A

I will be showing this one to my regular partners!
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#16 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2017-November-08, 06:52

1 "transfer to NT" is one way of starting from N. In that case, you are not promising suits you don't have (as you would if you double or bid 2).
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
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#17 User is online   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2017-November-08, 08:51

Hi,

not sure, if I even reach 6?

3NT is certainly a lazy bid, showes 12/13-15HCP and a heart stop,
we have 18, no wastage in heart, but are flat, so 3NT maybe lazy,
but it may be the most practical bid, given the alternatives.

The main alternative would be
a) x - showing 4 spades, will we ever convince partner, that we prefer
a NT contract to the 44 he believes he discovered?
b) 2H - a common agreement is showing diamond support, denies 4+ spades.
It is easier to convince partner, that we prefer NT to a diamond contract.
With the given hand, he may show spades, are we sure, spades bid by opener
show 5+, or is he just showing concentrated values?
For that matter, having discovered a diamond fit, why should he show spades,
when he has a wonderful alternative bid (4H), given he has discovered a
diamond fit? How well do we feel? Do we still believe, this will be a controlled
auction?

3NT is a lazy bid, sure, but it is a bid I may make, saving some stamina in the auction,
and which quite often wont cost a lot.
After partner finds 4S, he showes 65, but responder is still looking at 2 possible
heart loosers. I understand Key Card, 4NT should be RKCB for spades, although opener
should pass a diamond bid by responder.

In short: you reached 6S, you made an overtrick, be happy.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#18 User is online   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2017-November-08, 09:00

View Postnekthen, on 2017-November-08, 06:25, said:

I prefer not to bid dbl without 4, but 2 looks ok. 2 3 (another force) 3
Now what? South has shown 5 and 6 and we are surely in a GF situation.
<snip>

Why has South shown 65? Assuming 2H did not promise diamond support, North never denied having a heart stopper.
Hence, South just makes a forced waiting bid.
If 2H is just a general force, than 3NT over 2S showes the hand, a hand too strong for a direct 3NT bid.
I am willing to accept a seq. that makes a 2NT bid over 2S, ..., 2NT is certainly GF, and than you may proceed
the way you described.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#19 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2017-November-08, 09:03

View PostDinarius, on 2017-November-07, 03:09, said:

...over to you


If North bids 3NT, I bid 4 as South. I would now take 4NT by North as key-card agreeing

Easy to bid 6, but can you bid seven?

D.

Leaving aside the terrible 3NT bid, if north were to rebid 4NT over 4S would that not be to play, with no great fit for either of south’s suits? Something like Qxx AQJx xxx AJx.
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#20 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2017-November-08, 13:54

View PostDinarius, on 2017-November-07, 03:09, said:

...over to you


If North bids 3NT, I bid 4 as South. I would now take 4NT by North as key-card agreeing

Easy to bid 6, but can you bid seven?

D.


7S is very hard, I think, but 7D ought to be quite reachable.

The first question is what to bid over 1H. 3NT is wrong; it shows 12+ to 15 or so; we have 18, 17 of which are outside the overcaller's suit. If partner is short in H (which seems reasonable, given tha we have four), we could miss a diamond slam.

X is a possibility, I guess, but you'll have a tough time convincing your partner you don't hold 4 spades; you certainly don't want him correcting a D slam to a S slam.

What is so wrong with 2H over 1H? Yes, in theory, it suggests 4D, but we do have AJx in diamonds, and if partner is minimum, he's going to be looking for NT anyway.

After that, opener ought to recognize that if his partner has a limit raise in diamonds, his hand is absolutely HUGE. It's a 4-loser hand, so if partner has no H waste, even a limit raise should offer a good play for slam (Qx Jxxx Axxx Axx and six is icy; even with xx QJxx Axxx Axx it's still on a hook).

Opener needs to show that with a jump to 4H, showing a H void. Forget about spades. If partner had four of them, he'd have made a negative X. If you're going for slam, a 10-card suit (partner has shown 4) beats a possible 8-card suit.

After that, a reasonable auction playing very standard 2/1 methods would be:

1D (1H) 2H
4H(1) 4NT(2)
5D(3) 5H(4)
5S(5) 5NT(6)
6C(7) 7D(8)

(1) Good hand; h void; at least five diamonds and likely 6 (could be 4054)
(2) key card
(3) one key (you've already shown the H void)
(4) Queen ask
(5) Qd and Ks
(6) I'm interested in a grand; what else can you tell me? (Note: not "pick a slam" here; diamonds is agreed)
(7) I have the Kc; does that help?
(8) Sure does

Cheers,
Mike
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