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Rediculous bidding

#1 User is offline   lycier 

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Posted 2017-November-07, 00:26



The only right choice is to bid 2 after 2, obviously both of 2nt and 3 are very rediculous.
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#2 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2017-November-07, 01:54

Interesting. Generally hating Cappelletti as a convention, and not ever playing it with my human partnerships, I had never carefully, fully studied the systemic followups. Learned something new today.

According to my references, 2nt and 3c are actually reasonable, systemic calls! 2nt shows both minors and is a scramble. GIB even has the correct explanations for the calls!

It just falls apart when it failed to pass 3c, which is not any worse than 2s. This at least here happens to be an 8 cd fit, if it bid 2s it could have found partner with 45 in the majors and a 6 cd fit.

So I'd say not passing 3c is the ridiculous move here, not the 2nt call. Maybe also the choice of the convention in the first place, and especially its allowing 2M on 4cdM+longer minor.
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#3 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2017-November-07, 02:58

One thing I find really interesting in these threads is how you (OP) have learnt to double GIB on almost anything, because GIB perpetually overbids. :)

I agree with Stephen that the 2NT call is OK, not sure what on earth possessed GIB to bid 3D though.

Aren't the descriptions for 2D and 3C wrong - should be 4+/4+, as 2D can be 5-4 either way or better?

ahydra
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#4 User is offline   virgosrock 

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Posted 2017-November-07, 04:02

View PostStephen Tu, on 2017-November-07, 01:54, said:

Interesting. Generally hating Cappelletti as a convention, and not ever playing it with my human partnerships, I had never carefully, fully studied the systemic followups. Learned something new today.

According to my references, 2nt and 3c are actually reasonable, systemic calls! 2nt shows both minors and is a scramble. GIB even has the correct explanations for the calls!

It just falls apart when it failed to pass 3c, which is not any worse than 2s. This at least here happens to be an 8 cd fit, if it bid 2s it could have found partner with 45 in the majors and a 6 cd fit.

So I'd say not passing 3c is the ridiculous move here, not the 2nt call. Maybe also the choice of the convention in the first place, and especially its allowing 2M on 4cdM+longer minor.


3D of course is abysmal. How about West passing 2NT? I tread on eggs when GIBBO does such things and go for the safest (i.e. smallest penalty) option.

vrock
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#5 User is offline   manudude03 

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Posted 2017-November-07, 05:52

View Postvirgosrock, on 2017-November-07, 04:02, said:

3D of course is abysmal. How about West passing 2NT? I tread on eggs when GIBBO does such things and go for the safest (i.e. smallest penalty) option.

vrock


Passing would be an execution offence. Why should we have a biddable minor when we have promised both majors? It's not like 2NT promises a weak hand either.
Wayne Somerville
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#6 User is offline   virgosrock 

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Posted 2017-November-07, 06:22

View Postmanudude03, on 2017-November-07, 05:52, said:

Passing would be an execution offence. Why should we have a biddable minor when we have promised both majors? It's not like 2NT promises a weak hand either.


Did not quite understand what you are saying manudude. Could you clarify please.

vrock
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#7 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2017-November-07, 11:27

He's saying that passing 2nt would be ludicrous holding a 3 cd minor you should be happy to bid in this situation. Partner has shown 5/5+ in the minors. He could have caught you with 5/5 in the majors and only a 2 cd minor to bid. You should be happy to have a 3 cd minor, and 3c rates to do a better than 2nt because he has a misfit for your majors and you have a stiff diamond, you can crossruff for your tricks and transportation.
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#8 User is offline   virgosrock 

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Posted 2017-November-07, 16:04

View PostStephen Tu, on 2017-November-07, 11:27, said:

He's saying that passing 2nt would be ludicrous holding a 3 cd minor you should be happy to bid in this situation. Partner has shown 5/5+ in the minors. He could have caught you with 5/5 in the majors and only a 2 cd minor to bid. You should be happy to have a 3 cd minor, and 3c rates to do a better than 2nt because he has a misfit for your majors and you have a stiff diamond, you can crossruff for your tricks and transportation.


my bad did not notice lefty had 3C, thought had 2 clubs. I would just bid 4c over 3D. Even if have all the remaining 25 hcp i.e. 40 hcp - 15 hcp 3NT tough make.

vrock
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#9 User is offline   lycier 

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Posted 2017-November-07, 16:18

See the east hand only with 6hcp and 9TPs, there are only 5-5 distributions on minors, I would think no any reason to bid 2nt, obviously it is an overbid. Perhaps 2nt would be an acceptable option, but it should be in the other better hand , very bad in this hand.
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#10 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2017-November-07, 16:47

I don't see that it's really bad. 5431s by the majors bidder should be a lot more common than 55s. 2nt rates to improve things in those cases.

2nt if it is going to be minors shouldn't be reserved only for strong hands looking for game, which are incredibly rare, it is scramble looking for playable spot, rather than playing 2s on maybe 6 cd fit.

If you aren't going to trot out 2nt here, then it should have different meaning entirely, e.g. inv looking for the better major.

But my books and links say it is minors in the original convention. So bot may as well use it, just then pass 3c like any sane player.
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#11 User is offline   lycier 

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Posted 2017-November-08, 03:47

I do see that it is really very bad. Now I would take a classic example .


Obviously 2 is more better than 3.
This hand have showed there is a systemic issue to get a bad result due to 2nt as a rediculous bidding .
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#12 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2017-November-08, 04:33

6-5s are far less common than 5431s. Also it shouldn't be bidding 3d in response to 2nt with 1-1 in the minors, it should bid 3s. You lose on these hands when 3s is too high, but gain on the more frequent 5431 cases. The problem is mainly in the follow-ups to 2nt, not 2nt itself.

If you want to not bid 2nt on such hands, then like I said it is complete waste to use 2nt as minors as convention originally published.
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#13 User is offline   virgosrock 

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Posted 2017-November-08, 08:06

View PostStephen Tu, on 2017-November-08, 04:33, said:

6-5s are far less common than 5431s. Also it shouldn't be bidding 3d in response to 2nt with 1-1 in the minors, it should bid 3s. You lose on these hands when 3s is too high, but gain on the more frequent 5431 cases. The problem is mainly in the follow-ups to 2nt, not 2nt itself.

If you want to not bid 2nt on such hands, then like I said it is complete waste to use 2nt as minors as convention originally published.


thinking about this hand some more.... indeed 45 or 54 in majors is way more common. if 4-5 we don't want to play in a 4-2 fit if we bid 2s. and we do have 5-5 in minors. so i think 2NT to improve contract is ok. plus hcp is marked on our left. But 3D is asinine.

vrock
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