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new ACBL convention chart ?

#1 User is offline   Shugart23 

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Posted 2017-November-04, 07:11

Are 'they' coming out with new (colored?) updated Convention Charts to replace the old GCC ?.....Also, looking to see if a multi-2NT bid will be allowed or does an opening of 2NT remain as strictly either a natural bid or a hand containing both Minors ? Thank you
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#2 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-November-04, 08:15

My link


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#3 User is offline   Shugart23 

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Posted 2017-November-04, 08:25

View Poststeve2005, on 2017-November-04, 08:15, said:




thanks much........so an actual 'chart' is currently a work in progress ? (Your link was very helpful)
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#4 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-November-04, 08:26

2N can be used to show 2 Known suits in Open (which is similar to mid-chart)
Not sure what Multi for 2N is/
For open+ (which is like super chart)In​ ​segments​ ​of​ ​fewer​ ​than​ ​6​ ​boards,​ ​an​ ​Artificial​ ​opening​ ​Preempt​ ​below​ ​3NT​ ​that​ ​does not​ ​show​ ​at​ ​least​ ​one​ ​known​ ​suit.. You could have something multi for 2N but is only at teams really and there are other restriction you would have to read in the link I gave
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#5 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-November-04, 09:43

View PostShugart23, on 2017-November-04, 08:25, said:

thanks much........so an actual 'chart' is currently a work in progress ? (Your link was very helpful)

The convention charts have never (or not recently) actually been in "chart" format, they've just been a page of textual lists. They'd more accurately be called convention regulations.

There's an Alert Chart, but it's just considered a concise summary of the Alert Procedures.

#6 User is online   blackshoe 

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Posted 2017-November-04, 10:14

View PostShugart23, on 2017-November-04, 08:25, said:

thanks much........so an actual 'chart' is currently a work in progress ? (Your link was very helpful)

The new "charts" are an agenda item for the fall BoD meeting, with a proposed implementation date of 1 March 2018.
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#7 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-November-04, 21:25

View Postblackshoe, on 2017-November-04, 10:14, said:

The new "charts" are an agenda item for the fall BoD meeting, with a proposed implementation date of 1 March 2018.

Anyone know the final to be presented. The last draft was sep 15
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#8 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2017-November-26, 08:51

View Poststeve2005, on 2017-November-04, 21:25, said:

Anyone know the final to be presented. The last draft was sep 15


Looks like the Board of Govenors kicked the can down the road until Phlly

Pretty ridiculous from my perspective given how long the materials have been available and how open the process has been.
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#9 User is online   blackshoe 

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Posted 2017-November-26, 17:34

I think you mean the BoD kicked it to Philly. It was item 173-20 on the BoD agenda for SD.
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#10 User is offline   perko90 

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Posted 2018-March-17, 01:18

I was at Philly and I heard from reliable sources that the new Convention Charts passed!
It will take effect for the Hawaii Fall NABC.
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#11 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-March-17, 07:35

View Poststeve2005, on 2017-November-04, 08:15, said:



Am I missing something, or do the Basic and Basic+ "charts" disallow a natural strong 2 level suit opening? :blink:
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#12 User is offline   BillHiggin 

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Posted 2018-March-17, 09:00

View Postpescetom, on 2018-March-17, 07:35, said:

Am I missing something, or do the Basic and Basic+ "charts" disallow a natural strong 2 level suit opening? :blink:


You are missing something:

1. Any opening bid in a suit that is Natural, as long as it shows at least Near-AverageStrength.
You must know the rules well - so that you may break them wisely!
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#13 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-March-17, 09:35

View PostBillHiggin, on 2018-March-17, 09:00, said:

You are missing something:

1. Any opening bid in a suit that is Natural, as long as it shows at least Near-AverageStrength.


But “Near​ ​Average​ ​Strength” is defined as a hand that has at least 8 HCP, whereas a natural strong 2-opener should be "Very Strong" or at least close to that.
Or would they allow (say) a 2H opening that shows at least 15 points, with 1H limited to 11-14?
Doesn't sound at all natural to me.
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#14 User is offline   perko90 

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Posted 2018-March-17, 13:39

View Postpescetom, on 2018-March-17, 09:35, said:

But “Near​ ​Average​ ​Strength” is defined as a hand that has at least 8 HCP, whereas a natural strong 2-opener should be "Very Strong" or at least close to that.
Or would they allow (say) a 2H opening that shows at least 15 points, with 1H limited to 11-14?
Doesn't sound at all natural to me.


I think you're confusing yourself. "Natural" at the 2 level means 5 or more in the suit and as long as it shows 8+ HCPs, it's allowed. It could promise 11+, 15+, 19+ or whatever.
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#15 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2018-March-17, 14:15

View Postperko90, on 2018-March-17, 01:18, said:

I was at Philly and I heard from reliable sources that the new Convention Charts passed!
It will take effect for the Hawaii Fall NABC.


This is definitely good news.

Sadly, they amended things to restore the Defensive Database
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#16 User is online   blackshoe 

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Posted 2018-March-17, 15:05

You mean we still need an approved defense before we can use our convention? Crap. :(
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#17 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2018-March-17, 15:29

View Postblackshoe, on 2018-March-17, 15:05, said:

You mean we still need an approved defense before we can use our convention? Crap. :(


Yeap...

On the bright side, the Defensive Database only applies to a subset of the bids on the Open+ Chart.

Moreover, if the C&C doesn't respond within 30 days of a player submitting a method, its gets a provisional approval.

(Given the C&C's record with updating their web site...)
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#18 User is online   ldrews 

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Posted 2018-March-17, 16:00

I must be missing something. I play a version of Precision Club. In Precision Club an opening bid of 2C represents a 11-15 HCP and 6 card club suit or a 5 card club suit + 4 card major. The Basic and Basic+ Charts indicate that a 2 level opening bid may be Average Strength hand with at least a 5/4 shape and both suits known. With Precision Club both suits are not known since the 5 club + 4 major has an unknown major or the 6 club does not have a second suit.

Based on my reading Precision Club would not be allowed under Basic and Basic+ Chart events.
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#19 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2018-March-17, 16:05

View Postperko90, on 2018-March-17, 13:39, said:

I think you're confusing yourself. "Natural" at the 2 level means 5 or more in the suit and as long as it shows 8+ HCPs, it's allowed. It could promise 11+, 15+, 19+ or whatever.


I'm not confusing myself at all, but if that's how it is intended to be interpreted, fine and thanks.
I would be quite happy to play in a place where one could experiment with things like 1-level majors being 8-14 and 2-level being 15+, I just couldn't look Culbertson in the face and call it natural :)
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#20 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2018-March-17, 19:38

View Postldrews, on 2018-March-17, 16:00, said:

I must be missing something. I play a version of Precision Club. In Precision Club an opening bid of 2C represents a 11-15 HCP and 6 card club suit or a 5 card club suit + 4 card major. The Basic and Basic+ Charts indicate that a 2 level opening bid may be Average Strength hand with at least a 5/4 shape and both suits known. With Precision Club both suits are not known since the 5 club + 4 major has an unknown major or the 6 club does not have a second suit.

Based on my reading Precision Club would not be allowed under Basic and Basic+ Chart events.


I believe that you are mis reading the charts.

Under definitions:

Quote

2. ***​ ​“Natural”​:

...
b. Any opening bid at the two-level or higher showing 5 or more cards in the suit
bid.
...
i. A call is still Natural if it also shows distribution in another suit.


Therefore, a 2 opening which promises 5+ Clubs is defined as natural, regardless of whether it might also contain a side 4 card major.

Furthermore, the Basic Chart sanctions

1. Any opening bid in a suit that is Natural, as long as it shows at least Near-Average Strength.
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