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Crossed out bid NZ

#1 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2017-November-01, 04:34



Edit: South doubled 1S, sorry I forgot that in the initial posting.

MPs. EW play weak NT with 5cM, short club.

Written bidding is in use. At West's second turn to call, she writes "2", then pauses and scribbles out the "2". South questions whether this is OK and the TD is called over. TD says that the bid hasn't been made yet as no denomination was specified named (:P), and so Wast can make any call she wishes but the fact that she wrote "2" (and hesitated) is unauthorized to East.

West calls 1NT, 15-16, and East raises to 3NT. After the hand (result 3NT=), North queries whether the 3NT call is taking advantage of the UI - he feels that the East hand is not worth more than an invite.

How do you rule? It seems to come down to: is 2NT a LA, and could 3NT be demonstrably suggested by the UI? (When asked why she bid 3NT, East said "15 + 9 = 24 which is game".)

ahydra
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#2 User is offline   WellSpyder 

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Posted 2017-November-01, 05:09

I wonder what west was thinking about when she wrote "2". My guess is that she temporarily "forgot" that 1N was sufficient and might have been about to bid 2N. Does that tell east anything useful about her hand? I don't think so, so I don't think any call is suggested over another by the UI.
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#3 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2017-November-01, 06:25

View Postahydra, on 2017-November-01, 04:34, said:

…the fact that she wrote "2" (and hesitated) is unauthorized to East.

The fact is extraneous. What's unauthorized is any inference from the fact about West's hand. To me, the fact does not obviously suggest anything about West's hand, so I don't see how there can be any illegal use of UI here.
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#4 User is online   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-November-01, 06:28

If West was about to bid 2NT then this might suggest that West was close to top of the range - and bidding 3NT is suggested.

If West was about to bid 2, the knowledge of some good fitting cards in clubs might suggest biding 3NT.

Passing, 2NT, 2 and 3 are all LAs in my opinion.

A poll would be useful.
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#5 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-November-01, 07:02

I think NS might want to query their defence more than EW's bidding, I suppose A and J were both right and they didn't lead a diamond early enough.

I think expecting E to pass 1N is cloud cuckoo land, I would bid 3N over 2N with the W hand (10 and 109 of partner's suit are good cards).

The E hand is a pretty average 9 and many people do just bid 3N on this. I think the UI DOES suggest 3N (although do you want to be there opposite a good 14 with 5-6 clubs which could be what the decision was), but I think the bid is normal.
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#6 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2017-November-01, 15:08

"2" probably suggests 2 rather than 2NT as there was no use of the stop card. OTOH it could also suggest a reverse. Either way, I don't think it makes 3NT more attractive than it would have been without the UI.
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#7 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2017-November-01, 15:21

Sorry, forgot that South doubled 1S, rather than passed (doubt it makes any difference to the ruling though).

Cyberyeti: don't understand your comment about E passing 1N, N claims the hand is an invite so 2N is the alleged LA, not pass.

ahydra
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#8 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-November-01, 15:49

View Postahydra, on 2017-November-01, 15:21, said:

Sorry, forgot that South doubled 1S, rather than passed (doubt it makes any difference to the ruling though).

Cyberyeti: don't understand your comment about E passing 1N, N claims the hand is an invite so 2N is the alleged LA, not pass.

ahydra


I read it as "not worth an invite" rather than "not worth more than an invite" but I'd accept the invite anyway.
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#9 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2017-November-02, 15:17

TD also ruled "score stands" as apparently "a decent proportion of the room would make that bid" (i.e. the 3NT bid). I don't think that's the correct criterion for determining an LA - surely 2NT is an LA as a decent proportion of the room would make that bid too...

What I'm less certain of is whether the "2" and hesitation demonstrably suggests anything in particular. I felt it could, as West is most likely thinking of upgrading to 2NT or reversing into 2D, both of which show extras and hence 3NT is suggested. (West appeared to be a much weaker player than East, so East might bid 3NT to avoid West wimping out.) But it's not 100% clear, and in any case it looks like most would accept the 2NT invite anyway.

Cyberyeti said:

I think NS might want to query their defence more than EW's bidding, I suppose A and J were both right and they didn't lead a diamond early enough.


Indeed they were and we didn't, I (North) had KJ76 1043 1087 876 and led a heart as partner had implied hearts with the double.

ahydra
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