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Rebid of own suit at acol

#1 User is offline   Tim Ocean 

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Posted 2017-October-31, 12:16

Does rebid of own suit at the lowest level mean at least 5 cards in that suit in acol? For exampe
1-1
2
Or should I have at least 6 cards?
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#2 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2017-October-31, 12:23

should be 6 here, because if you have 5 in that scenario you'll either have a balanced hand (yes you should open 1N with a 5 card major), or a side 4 card suit you can bid, or you'll have 4 card spade support.

it's different if it goes lets say 1H - 2D because here you might have to rebid 2H with a 5 card suit if you're for example 4522 12 count as you're not strong enough to reverse into 2S
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#3 User is offline   Tim Ocean 

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Posted 2017-October-31, 12:28

View Posteagles123, on 2017-October-31, 12:23, said:

should be 6 here, because if you have 5 in that scenario you'll either have a balanced hand (yes you should open 1N with a 5 card major)
Should I open 1NT with 12-14 HCP, balanced hand and a 5 card major? :o Even if its a good 5 card major? ;>
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#4 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2017-October-31, 12:30

View PostTim Ocean, on 2017-October-31, 12:28, said:

Should I open 1NT with 12-14 HCP, balanced hand and a 5 card major? :o Even if its a good 5 card major? ;>


in my opinion yes, unless the hand is truly exceptional - xx AKQJX Qxx xxx for example I would open 1H playing acol, but for 95% of hands with 12-14 and a 5 card major I would recommend opening 1N

It's a hotly debated thing, others I have no doubt will disagree with me, it's just my opinion :)
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#5 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-October-31, 13:17

It shows 6 if as eagles says you open 1N with 5M332 as I think you should. Basically unless you want to treat it as a 6 card suit like the hand eagles stated, open 1N.

Note this is only the case in this precise auction where the response is the suit above, 1-1-2 is 6 or 5/4
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#6 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2017-October-31, 13:38

Hi,

you asked for a text book about Acol, ..., basically pick one, and stick with the choosen
variant.
I used to play, that the rebid only showed 5+, it worked, it was simple, rebidding
a suit makes the suit 1 card longer. It is not really obvious, why it should go from
4+ cards to 6+ cards in the given seq., when all other seq. involving openers rebid
show only 5+.

I would try to avoid making the opening bid a judgement question, and this is is, what it
gets to it, if you bring suit quality in it.

If you dont want to open 1NT with 5332 and a 5 card major, but want the 6+ meaning in the
given seq., you can bid 2m with a 3 carder,
this is not really Acol philosophy, but also not completly foreign, inventing a minor on the
3 level is a common method.
But before you decide what to do, go with my first remark, pick a text book, and stick with
the suggested structure, ... and before you do this find a partner, agreeing on the text book
should be your first partnership task.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-October-31, 15:01

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2017-October-31, 13:38, said:

Hi,

you asked for a text book about Acol, ..., basically pick one, and stick with the choosen
variant.
I used to play, that the rebid only showed 5+, it worked, it was simple, rebidding
a suit makes the suit 1 card longer. It is not really obvious, why it should go from
4+ cards to 6+ cards in the given seq., when all other seq. involving openers rebid
show only 5+.

I would try to avoid making the opening bid a judgement question, and this is is, what it
gets to it, if you bring suit quality in it.

If you dont want to open 1NT with 5332 and a 5 card major, but want the 6+ meaning in the
given seq., you can bid 2m with a 3 carder,
this is not really Acol philosophy, but also not completly foreign, inventing a minor on the
3 level is a common method.
But before you decide what to do, go with my first remark, pick a text book, and stick with
the suggested structure, ... and before you do this find a partner, agreeing on the text book
should be your first partnership task.

With kind regards
Marlowe


The rebid only shows 5+ but you haven't bid 2m so on what hand can you have exactly 5 ? must be a 5332, so if you open 1N on that it shows 6.

I agree with the rest of your post.
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#8 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2017-October-31, 18:22

Even if you don't always open 1NT with 5M332 hands, the 2 rebid shows 6. With 5332 you either rebid 1NT (you may agree to play this as 12-17 rather than 15-17) or you rebid a 3-card minor, or you raise spades with 3-card support.

As a general rule, you should try to avoid bidding a 5-card suit twice unless partner has somehow indicated tolerance for it (by making a t/o double or by rebidding notrumps). Open 1NT with any 5332, and also with 5422 if the 5-card suit is a minor. To find a 5-3 fit, you either make a bid in a new suit thereby indicating that your first suit was a 5-card suit, or you rely on partner to show his 3-card support.
OBAR = OverBidding At Random? --- Vampyr
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#9 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2017-October-31, 20:03

View Posthelene_t, on 2017-October-31, 18:22, said:

Even if you don't always open 1NT with 5M332 hands, the 2 rebid shows 6. With 5332 you either rebid 1NT (you may agree to play this as 12-17 rather than 15-17) or you rebid a 3-card minor, or you raise spades with 3-card support.

As a general rule, you should try to avoid bidding a 5-card suit twice unless partner has somehow indicated tolerance for it (by making a t/o double or by rebidding notrumps). Open 1NT with any 5332, and also with 5422 if the 5-card suit is a minor. To find a 5-3 fit, you either make a bid in a new suit thereby indicating that your first suit was a 5-card suit, or you rely on partner to show his 3-card support.


This is certainly a playable style, but I don't think it's standard Acol style. I think particularly the rebidding 3c minors is more of an American thing.

FWIW my ex-partner and I played 1H-1S; 1NT = 12-17 5H332, with 2C checkback ->
2D! weak NT with 3S
2H! weak NT no 3S
and others as for regular 15-17 checkback.

ahydra
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#10 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-October-31, 20:32

View Postahydra, on 2017-October-31, 20:03, said:

This is certainly a playable style, but I don't think it's standard Acol style. I think particularly the rebidding 3c minors is more of an American thing.

FWIW my ex-partner and I played 1H-1S; 1NT = 12-17 5H332, with 2C checkback ->
2D! weak NT with 3S
2H! weak NT no 3S
and others as for regular 15-17 checkback.

ahydra


Just tonight I played against someone who played a wide-ranging 1NT rebid. What are the advantages of this style?
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#11 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2017-October-31, 21:10

View PostVampyr, on 2017-October-31, 20:32, said:

Just tonight I played against someone who played a wide-ranging 1NT rebid. What are the advantages of this style?

If you open 1NT you can easily miss a heart fit.

If you rebid 2 you can be playing in a 5-1 fit.

If you rebid 2 you can be playing 3 in a 3-4 fit, or 2 in a 3-3 fit on a very bad day.

If you raise on a 3-card spades, partner may overbid since he thinks (or at least have to cater to) that you either have good shape or 15-16 balanced.
-------
So you rebid 1NT. Partner can check back and discover that you have a 5332 minimum, in which case you usually play 2, but you can often avoid the 5-1 fit since partner does have other options. With a 5-card diamonds he can pass the 2 answer to the checkback. With a 5-card spades he can bid 2. With a 6-card clubs he can bid 3. With 6-7 points he can pass 1NT.
OBAR = OverBidding At Random? --- Vampyr
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#12 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2017-October-31, 21:14

View Postahydra, on 2017-October-31, 20:03, said:

FWIW my ex-partner and I played 1H-1S; 1NT = 12-17 5H332, with 2C checkback ->
2D! weak NT with 3S
2H! weak NT no 3S

Probably better to reverse these so that responder can pass the 2 bid 4144 and similar.
OBAR = OverBidding At Random? --- Vampyr
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#13 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-October-31, 22:31

This is an interesting post on the forum, and as usual as brought some varied replies.

I played against many a good partnership using Acol in my teens (late 1970s/1980s) and rebidding 1NT with a 12-16 count was de rigueur as invariably all were playing the Crowhurst [checkback 2] convention. I can't recall any specific hands, but many featured an opener with a 5M rebidding 1NT as it was 'just not Acol, even acceptable' opening 1NT with a 5M. How times change!

As for rebidding 3 card minors at the 2 level, amongst my bridge library there was an Acol bidding book of the late 1960s (?) by the late, great Terence Reese that advocated this practice. I thought it strange as I was always of the opinion, and other Acol books that I have read since advocated this, that any 2 level rebid should always have 4m. However, the no-trump structure might have been variable in Reese's day: 12-14 nv; 16-18 vul.
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#14 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2017-November-01, 03:37

I open 1N with a 5 card major and 5332 or even 5224 (4 card minor only)

I play responder's 3c as puppet Stayman GF. So you do not miss 4M where it appears to be better than 3N.
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#15 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-November-01, 06:15

I will usually open 1NT with a five card major, but if the major is strong (three of the top five honours) I will open the suit. Playing this approach the sequence in the opening post will show a six card suit, or failing that a good quality five card suit that will play well opposite small doubleton.

My wide-ranging 1NT rebid is 15-18. I am happy opening 1NT with balanced hands in the the weak NT range.
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#16 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-November-01, 06:16

View Postnekthen, on 2017-November-01, 03:37, said:

I play responder's 3c as puppet Stayman GF. So you do not miss 4M where it appears to be better than 3N.


Yes, I do that.
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#17 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-November-01, 06:51

View PostVampyr, on 2017-October-31, 20:32, said:

Just tonight I played against someone who played a wide-ranging 1NT rebid. What are the advantages of this style?


I hate the 12-16 or 17 style of 1N rebid in a weak no trump system, it seems a partial waste with not a lot of gain, just open 1N but the wide range range rebid is a fine idea, we play 15-bad 19 so there is no gap between 1N rebid and 2N opener, meaning we can use the 2N rebid for something else (unbalanced GF solving the "death hand" problem).
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#18 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-November-01, 07:15

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-November-01, 06:51, said:

I hate the 12-16 or 17 style of 1N rebid in a weak no trump system, it seems a partial waste with not a lot of gain, just open 1N but the wide range range rebid is a fine idea, we play 15-bad 19 so there is no gap between 1N rebid and 2N opener, meaning we can use the 2N rebid for something else (unbalanced GF solving the "death hand" problem).


Interesting. we use a similar range but play 2NT as 19-20 (with the advantage that we can treat it as 100% forcing). Our 2NT via the multi shows 21-22, meaning that we never have to play 2NT opposite a Yarborough (we find we pick up a lot of swings by not needing to open 2NT on a 20 count).
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#19 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-November-01, 10:11

A 2 Heart rebid does not” guarantee “six hearts in Acol original.Reese and others made many modifications in that system,A book titled “Acol in the nineties” is also available.However,the system faded later on and is hardly played anywhere except in England these days.
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#20 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2017-November-01, 10:33

in my opinion the wide ranging 1N rebid is one of the worst conventions i've ever come across.
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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