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Spot where I went wrong

#1 User is offline   xeno123 

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Posted 2017-October-26, 16:44

So in a recent GIB daily MP tournament, I ended up with a 31% score on the following hand by going down two. The winning strategy turns out to be passing the hand out (50 players scoring 83%), while my down two (also 50 players) was good for only 31%. But 17 players scored 60% by going down only one on the same bidding as below (and another 17 went down only 2 in 4). How did they do better?



And what do folks think about bidding vs. passing here? I'm still a bidder.
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#2 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2017-October-26, 17:17

Hi XENO. I think the play clearly depends on'what you think the field will be playing, as the DA lead and switch clearly warned you of a likely singleton.
If you think the hand can be a pass out (or if you think most could be in 4S), then you clearly have to try to avoid suffering 2 ruffs and limit your losses, maybe offering the SK to west, by playing SA and another.
If you think the field will play in 2/3S, then it is a toss...
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#3 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2017-October-26, 17:21

they read the lead as likely singleton and don't try to hook the spade.
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#4 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2017-October-26, 18:18

Small tip: play the K on the club switch. If RHO doesn't see the K, he might continue a club instead of a diamond.
Probably wouldn't have worked here. But you gotta keep trying.
Obviously we have a recall bias in favour of the assholes. -helene_t
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#5 User is offline   xeno123 

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Posted 2017-October-26, 18:18

View PostStephen Tu, on 2017-October-26, 17:21, said:

they read the lead as likely singleton and don't try to hook the spade.


I don't know for sure (as we only get a typical example in these tournaments), but based on the only examples I have where people made 8 tricks, they did in fact hook the spade and lost to the king.
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#6 User is offline   xeno123 

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Posted 2017-October-26, 18:21

View Postcherdano, on 2017-October-26, 18:18, said:

Small tip: play the K on the club switch. If RHO doesn't see the K, he might continue a club instead of a diamond.
Probably wouldn't have worked here. But you gotta keep trying.


You are on the right track, although not for quite the right reason.
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#7 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2017-October-26, 18:32

View Postxeno123, on 2017-October-26, 18:18, said:

I don't know for sure (as we only get a typical example in these tournaments), but based on the only examples I have where people made 8 tricks, they did in fact hook the spade and lost to the king.

Rather than looking at the Results page, if you log onto BBO and go to My BBO - Hands and results - Recent Tournaments - My Hands - Other Tables, you can see a full list of everyone who played the hand, and how.

PS - be warned - you may be disappointed to find that it's something as trivial as playing a different card from equals which results in a different switch from GIB.
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#8 User is offline   xeno123 

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Posted 2017-October-26, 18:47

View Postsmerriman, on 2017-October-26, 18:32, said:

Rather than looking at the Results page, if you log onto BBO and go to My BBO - Hands and results - Recent Tournaments - My Hands - Other Tables, you can see a full list of everyone who played the hand, and how.

PS - be warned - you may be disappointed to find that it's something as trivial as playing a different card from equals which results in a different switch from GIB.


Thanks - hadn't realized that. I checked all the folks that played in 3 down one. There were basically three different lines that achieved this, of which not hooking the spade was the least common.
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#9 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2017-October-26, 19:19

Well the other lines are relying on GIB random defensive mistakes, wouldn't necessarily call it "achievement" in terms of better declarer play.
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#10 User is offline   xeno123 

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Posted 2017-October-26, 21:48

View PostStephen Tu, on 2017-October-26, 19:19, said:

Well the other lines are relying on GIB random defensive mistakes, wouldn't necessarily call it "achievement" in terms of better declarer play.


Well yes, to some degree. If you lose the spade finesse then with optimal defender play you will of course be down two. But that doesn't mean some lines don't give the defenders more chances to misplay. Not going to make much difference against top defenders, but against GIB and lower-ranked players it can make a difference.

So here going up with K immediately means that West will have a choice of how to get back to East's hand for a second ruff and in practice GIB chose wrongly, trying another club. The way I played, the choice was obvious. (I was hoping that East might duck if I played low).

The other line that "worked" in practice was ducking the first heart. I doubt that is optimal play however.
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#11 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-October-27, 00:58

I'm a passer on the South hand but if one opponent opens and the other responds at the one level, 1 is obligatory as an overcall and with the same North hand you'll end up in 3 anyway.

Good 11 HCP counts I will open, but this isn't one of them, despite it coming out as a 11.9 count on the Kaplan and Rubens evaluator.

The opening suit is poor and not feasibly re-biddable in 2/1. There are a lack of intermediates. And it's that damned 5-4-2-2 shape with a doubleton Q.

I would dislike rebidding 2 or 2NT with that hand, and if partner has, as he's liable to do, with a 12 or 13 count bid at the 2 level, you're committed to a very thin game contract in 2/1. I'd rather play the percentages with the anchor suit s that if partner has a 12 or 13 count he can open/overcall and you can reach a safe part score contract.
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#12 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2017-October-27, 01:57

View PostThe_Badger, on 2017-October-27, 00:58, said:

... and if partner has, as he's liable to do, with a 12 or 13 count bid at the 2 level...


The key with daylong tournaments is that they're best hand, so here you know nobody has more than 11 HCP. That weighs decisions far more towards always opening (and often passing "unlimited" responses).
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#13 User is offline   silvr bull 

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Posted 2017-October-27, 02:31

The top score is likely to be 1S making 1 or 2, but you cannot get to to a 1S contract by opening the South hand. My view is that limiting my hand at an early opportunity is a high priority, so partner does not get too enthusiastic. Whenever there is a question about open or not, I pass first as an easy and immediate way to limit my hand. The South hand is an easy pass for me in 1st or 2nd seat. With the North hand (in 3rd seat, not vul, and good support for both majors), however , I would risk a minor suit open and then pass any response.
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#14 User is offline   mcphee 

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Posted 2017-October-27, 03:20

While on the surface it seems you want to grab the S hook and claim 10 tricks. Not being in game I would be hoping the K was off side which means 4 fails. If we lose to Kx offside you only make 3 as they can collect a ruff. Not being happy to have missed a game when its onside I am A other player in the trumps as the best outcome I can hope for.
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#15 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2017-October-27, 08:03

View Postxeno123, on 2017-October-26, 16:44, said:

So in a recent GIB daily MP tournament, I ended up with a 31% score on the following hand by going down two. The winning strategy turns out to be passing the hand out (50 players scoring 83%), while my down two (also 50 players) was good for only 31%. But 17 players scored 60% by going down only one on the same bidding as below (and another 17 went down only 2 in 4). How did they do better?



And what do folks think about bidding vs. passing here? I'm still a bidder.

I would pass as dealer. I only have 11 hcp and the spade suit is too anaemic to open.
In 1st and 2nd seat you have to be more strict regarding pointage and suit quality.
It's not a sin to play bridge,but it's a crime if you play it badly(!) ;)
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- Dr Tarrasch(1862-1934)German Chess Grandmaster
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#16 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-October-27, 08:39

Robots are known fo overbid /misbid.So Playing With Robos who do not know the Drury convention, it is better to pass this poor 11pointer in 1/2 seat and perhaps in all seats.
As regards the play the DA lead is certainly a singleton lead as it is a Robot in that seat.So Playing Spade Ace and another spade and then “ flying” with CK would certainly have fooled the Robo.
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#17 User is offline   xeno123 

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Posted 2017-October-27, 15:24

View Postmsjennifer, on 2017-October-27, 08:39, said:

Robots are known fo overbid /misbid.So Playing With Robos who do not know the Drury convention, it is better to pass this poor 11pointer in 1/2 seat and perhaps in all seats.
As regards the play the DA lead is certainly a singleton lead as it is a Robot in that seat.So Playing Spade Ace and another spade and then “ flying” with CK would certainly have fooled the Robo.


These days the robots do in fact play (reverse) Drury:

>>GIB plays one-way Reverse Drury when partner opens a Major in 3rd or 4th seat. A 2♣ response shows at least 3-card support and invitational values (11-12 total points).

Also as pointed out above, these are "Best Hands" tourneys, so if I pass it is almost certain the hand will be passed out unless W has a very distributional hand. I have no clue whether that favors bidding or passing though - I would say passing. The normal preemptive effect of bidding is not really needed.
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#18 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2017-October-27, 22:11

I would also pass the South hand.
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#19 User is offline   jdb1357 

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Posted 2017-October-28, 07:22

i read though most of the comments!!!??? i would pass the south hand!! and i would open the north hand in 3rd seat non vun : 1Diam and hope partner bids a spade or heart or at worst
2 diamonds and obviously i pass any bid!!!! 1 spade making 2 or 3 spades. would give you all the points or most!!!
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#20 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2017-October-28, 11:14

View Postrmnka447, on 2017-October-27, 22:11, said:

I would also pass the South hand.

Same here playing 2/1 as the dub Q is enough of a defect to cause me to somewhat prefer passing in 1st seat.
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