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18-19 balanced with a fit?

#21 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2017-October-26, 12:08

I guess I really don't understand the people who want to conceal the heart fit. If the hand were a point stronger, and you open 2nt, and partner bids stayman, do you deny holding a major because of your tenaces? To me your tenace help you just one time, on opening lead, it will be attackable later, and it often won't be enough of a stopper facing a stiff/small doubleton.

Yes it's POSSIBLE that 3nt plays better than 4H. But is it percentage?? Maybe someone should run a sim.

I don't want to miss my 4-4 heart fits when partner is 34(15) or 3424 or 2425. Or my NINE card heart fit when partner is 5332 and decides not to check back for what he thinks is only 8 cd possible heart fit.
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#22 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2017-October-26, 12:27

Is this what the forums have become these days??

(3H - the standard bid on an unexceptional 18-19 with a fit)
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
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#23 User is offline   Malachi 

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Posted 2017-October-26, 12:32

Of course you have no distribution for H, but partner's hand will on average contain a substantial amount of useful distribution, whether or not he can bid over 2N.

Give him
S xxx
H Kxxxx
D x
C Qxxx

And he passes 2N when 4H is cold.

I choose 3H, expecting partner to accept on this hand and on most hands where 4H has good play. We always reach H and stay out of all bad games.
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#24 User is offline   bravejason 

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Posted 2017-October-26, 12:38

I like 2NT. It describes opener's hand very well. It also gives responder an opportunity explore for the right contract, which could be 2NT. I think avoiding 2NT on account of responder having a singleton or something is overthinking the situation. If responder has that, she'll be able to offer another suit or rebid hearts and then opener will have the opportunity to correct as needed. Otherwise responder can go to 3NT or pass 2NT if the 1H was a courtesy bid made on a really weak hand.
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#25 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2017-October-26, 13:05

View Postbravejason, on 2017-October-26, 12:38, said:

I think avoiding 2NT on account of responder having a singleton or something is overthinking the situation. If responder has that, she'll be able to offer another suit or rebid hearts and then opener will have the opportunity to correct as needed.


Not raising hearts is the overthinking IMO.

Responder with 4 hearts and a minor stiff or small doubleton is passing 2nt or bidding 3. Not going to offer another suit. 3m is usually artificial and/or forcing. They aren't going to checkback because 5m is too remote vs 3nt, it reveals more to the defense than just raising, and going through checkback will often lead to opener supporting on THREE at the 4 level which they really don't want.

I can understand concealing heart fit with 4 baby hearts and the outside suits all double stopped. Not this hand.
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#26 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2017-October-26, 13:42

I don't see what is so awful about the pedestrian 4H bid. Sure, 3NT could play better, but a 3NT call directly shows excellent clubs and a hand that hopes to run nine tricks, not a moose.

As for 2NT or 3H, you can't make those bids at IMPs, where you gotta bid your games. If you bid 2NT or 3H, you deserve to play there when partner tables:

xxx Kxxxx x QTxx

Best,
Mike
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#27 User is offline   billyjef 

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Posted 2017-October-26, 14:26

View Postmiamijd, on 2017-October-26, 13:42, said:

I don't see what is so awful about the pedestrian 4H bid. Sure, 3NT could play better, but a 3NT call directly shows excellent clubs and a hand that hopes to run nine tricks, not a moose.

As for 2NT or 3H, you can't make those bids at IMPs, where you gotta bid your games. If you bid 2NT or 3H, you deserve to play there when partner tables:

xxx Kxxxx x QTxx

Best,
Mike


Vulnerable, teams, I doubt I'd have the power to not bid 4. Away from the table, objectively, I don't see the hand as 19 points, rather a poor 18. That all said, remove one of the minor suit jacks, where 4 isn't as tempting, what would more accurately describe the hand, 2N or 3? Just curious.
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#28 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2017-October-27, 03:27

View Postmiamijd, on 2017-October-26, 13:42, said:

I don't see what is so awful about the pedestrian 4H bid. Sure, 3NT could play better, but a 3NT call directly shows excellent clubs and a hand that hopes to run nine tricks, not a moose.

As for 2NT or 3H, you can't make those bids at IMPs, where you gotta bid your games. If you bid 2NT or 3H, you deserve to play there when partner tables:

xxx Kxxxx x QTxx

Best,
Mike

That's a pretty obvious 4H bid (over 1C-1H; 3H) to me. You have a singleton and 5 trumps. There's nothing contradictory about accepting an invitation on a minimum response. This is a minimum 3514 (which should accept), not a minimum 3433 (which should not accept).

to clarify, though, I think 4H is by no means awful, it is my second choice.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
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#29 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2017-October-27, 04:20

it's 3h without a toy. you can use 3d for this hand type though.
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#30 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2017-October-27, 04:51

deleted T-Walsh
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#31 User is offline   sultro 

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Posted 2017-October-27, 07:18

4333 hand i would bid 2nt. you have no distributional values to add. if partner has distribution, he can still take another bid. that bidding is pretty old fashioned, but it works. jump in nt shows more than an opening no trump, and opening nt distributions. so, it perfectly describes this hand. change even one card so that you are 4432, and 4 hearts gets a lot more attractive.
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#32 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-October-27, 08:05

View Poststeve2005, on 2017-October-26, 07:24, said:

You have no ruffing values it is true but partner likely does. 4H can easily make when 3N down when partner is short in a suit where your stoppers aren't good enough. There is also a possibility of 6H, if you rebid 2N it will make finding 6H much harder.

Also, partner is allowed to pass 2N. Without knowing you have 4-hearts partner won't know his hearts are running or 1-loser so may pass close hand that will make game.

If you have convention that shows balanced 4-card support then great but without it you need to show your support.

And why should we “presume” that he may be unbalanced? If indeed he has one he shall certainly make a checkback in which case one can easily jump to four heart.We don’t IMAGINE that partner “ likely” has ruffing values!And if one has not discussed


how to bid further on this sequence then the best bid is 3H. However such a suit jump only shows that the opener has a SIX loser hand as played in a heart contract whereas this hand has 7 losers.It is possible that partner has a 9 loser hand and does not know what to do over 3H, with a 3433 pattern.Of course then it becomes easier to blame him if his bid proves to be disastrous!
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#33 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-October-27, 08:16

View PostThe_Badger, on 2017-October-26, 03:13, said:

At the worst, opener does have an option of bidding again after 2NT, whereas after 3 he doesn't. I agree bidding 2NT is not pretty, but if partner does use checkback there's nothing to say opener cannot bid 4 or 4as a response.

It is an automatic response to raise from 1M to 2M with 4 card support, but when opener is stronger, and there might be an advantage to him playing the hand, the forcing 2NT rebid defining the hand shape perfectly, even with 4 card support does at least allow a 'second bite of the cherry' for opener. I'd rather raise to 3M/4M immediately with a shapelier hand than this pudding of a 3343.

I fully agree.
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#34 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2017-October-27, 10:27

We don't presume anything (why do you put the word in quotes when nobody else said it, anyway?), we just raise partner's response with a fit.
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
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#35 User is offline   Joe_Old 

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Posted 2017-October-27, 11:18

With 19 HCP and an 8 card fit I would normally say 4 is the only bid under consideration in a 2/1 or SAYC auction. But not here. Opposite a minimum, this hand will play very poorly if you need a lot of transportation to take your finesses. That is, if partner has a lot of entries, you already have enough tricks to make game, if partner doesn't have many entries, 2NT may be too high.

Therefore, being a team game, I bid 2NT because it's a 3433 hand with a lot of quacks.
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#36 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2017-October-27, 11:24

Posted Image
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
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#37 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2017-October-27, 11:38

View Postmsjennifer, on 2017-October-27, 08:05, said:

And why should we "presume" that he may be unbalanced? If indeed he has one he shall certainly make a checkback in which case one can easily jump to four heart.We don't IMAGINE that partner " likely" has ruffing values!And if one has not discussed


People keep on saying that partner will checkback if unbalanced, but this is simply untrue if partner has 4 hearts unbalanced without 4 spades. Checkback systems are designed to check back for FIVE - THREE fits in responder's first major (or 4-4 in the OTHER major), not FOUR-FOUR fits which 2nt ostensibly denies for 99.9% of natural system players. If opener can have 4 cd support, you have to make your checkback system a lot more complicated.

With Kxx KTxx xx Axx are you going to checkback or bid 3nt? Surely you bid 3nt, which is more vulnerable on diamond lead than 4H. Even stiff diamond, Kxx KTxx x Qxxxx you aren't checking back, because you fear something like 1c-1h-2nt-3d!-3s-3nt-4h when opener has 3 cd support.

Denying 4 can also complicate things when responder has borderline slam values, he will think no 4-4 fit, so no extra trick with a ruff, that can discourage a slam exploration when it's there.

Partner is simply more likely to have a ruffing value somewhere than be exactly 3433, that is why we "presume" he is at least slightly unbalanced. If partner offers 3nt after 1c-1h-3h, of course we can pass, if you aren't playing 3nt as conventional. Might be easier to reach if playing the 3d = 18-19 bal raise gadget. Or maybe one can get to 3nt via 1c-1h-3h-3s!-3nt where 3S is a shortness ask, then 3nt shows the bal hand, and partner can pass. But to deny 4cd support as your first bid, when the auction will go 1c-1h-2nt-3nt all pass A LOT when 4H is better, with partner unbalanced and 4 hearts, or bal with a small doubleton in a minor, to me is anti-percentage.
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#38 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2017-October-27, 15:44

View Postgwnn, on 2017-October-27, 03:27, said:

That's a pretty obvious 4H bid (over 1C-1H; 3H) to me. You have a singleton and 5 trumps. There's nothing contradictory about accepting an invitation on a minimum response. This is a minimum 3514 (which should accept), not a minimum 3433 (which should not accept).

to clarify, though, I think 4H is by no means awful, it is my second choice.


Your 3H bids must be a lot stronger than mine. After 1C - 1H (opps passing), I would bid 3H with

AQx
QJxx
x
Axxxx

which doesn't play very well at all for 4H opposite the hand I gave earlier. But that's just me.

Cheers,
mike
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#39 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2017-October-27, 15:46

I dunno. A lot of folks here seem to want to be extremely careful not to bid games that don't make. To me, that's losing bridge. I'd much rather bid a game that doesn't make than miss one that does. At IMPs, of course, the rewards for game outweigh the downside of overbidding. But even at MPs, declarer play is a whole lot easier than defense Meckwell has shown that for decades.
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#40 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2017-October-27, 17:37

View Postmiamijd, on 2017-October-27, 15:44, said:

Your 3H bids must be a lot stronger than mine. After 1C - 1H (opps passing), I would bid 3H with

AQx
QJxx
x
Axxxx

which doesn't play very well at all for 4H opposite the hand I gave earlier. But that's just me.

Cheers,
mike


You are positing opponents who have more than half the deck and 11 cd diamond fit who keep quiet.

I think our point is that responder can see the vulnerability also, so should raise 3 to 4 on not much of excuse. Why should opener be the one to stretch when responder is unlimited and it's not the last call of auction? Bidding 4H might cause responder to get to 5 level or 6 level down 1 sometimes, canceling out some of the games you might reach that we don't by bidding 3H (not all of which make, anyway).
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