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18-19 balanced with a fit?

#1 User is offline   el mister 

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Posted 2017-October-25, 05:11

Had this hand in a teams game last night that had me a little stumped on how best to handle it [spots are approximate]


With pard being unlimited I didn't want to plough a 4 or 3N bid straight off, but 3 or 2N don't seem ideal, either. What is best?
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#2 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-October-25, 05:23

It is certainly not too strong for 4 - at least in my system (Acol). With a very balanced 18 count and no ruffing potential you might argue that it is too weak (partner might only holding 5-6 points).

Since it is vulnerable at teams I bid 4.
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#3 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-October-25, 05:29

Playing 2/1, and perhaps any other system these days, a 2NT rebid is (virtually) forcing to game showing 18-19 balanced over a 1 level opening and 1 level response.

Many players have a checkback bid in their armoury using 3 to find out opener's precise distribution and/or stoppers. That said, if responder is similarly balanced, you may not find out whether 4 or 3NT, or for that matter any other contract, is better and realistically you want South to play the hand given the tenaces which cannot happen in a contract.

The one thing you don't want to rebid is 3NT as it denies support for s and shows a completely different hand, a solid(ish) long minor suit with stoppers in the unbid suits.
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#4 User is offline   el mister 

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Posted 2017-October-25, 05:43

Thks - I did actually bid 2N at the table as I figured pard could use NMF if he had some stuff. It didn't feel like a sound bid, though, to go 2N with an established 8 card+ fit in a major?
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#5 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-October-25, 06:04

We experimented with using a 3N rebid as GF with 4 card support and no more than 4 clubs (so 4414, or a 4432 with clubs and hearts, we'd open 1 with your hand) and it was fine, but we found we didn't really need it due to other peculiarities of our system.
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#6 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-October-25, 06:14

Looking at the positional nature of the guards, I'm starting to prefer 2NT.
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#7 User is offline   WellSpyder 

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Posted 2017-October-25, 07:11

One of my partners likes to play that the so-called "cheapest splinter" (in this case, 3) shows 18-19 balanced with a fit. 3 is not needed as a natural jump-shift since a reverse into 2 is F. Of course, it does mean that you need 4 to show fit + shortage, as a splinter is supposed to do, but I suspect many would need to bid this high to show a splinter, anyway.
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#8 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-October-25, 11:01

View Postel mister, on 2017-October-25, 05:11, said:

Had this hand in a teams game last night that had me a little stumped on how best to handle it [spots are approximate]

With pard being unlimited I didn't want to plough a 4 or 3N bid straight off, but 3 or 2N don't seem ideal, either. What is best?

IMO this is worth 4.
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#9 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-October-25, 11:11

View Postel mister, on 2017-October-25, 05:43, said:

Thks - I did actually bid 2N at the table as I figured pard could use NMF if he had some stuff. It didn't feel like a sound bid, though, to go 2N with an established 8 card+ fit in a major?

Checkback or NMF is to find 3-card support. If partner has only 4 you could be missing a slam for all you know. Who cares what side you play it from!
With 4-card support you have to show it. Either 3 or 4.


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#10 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-October-25, 11:13

Standard for 3NT is suggested spot to play based on a source of tricks in your minor.
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#11 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2017-October-25, 11:20

IMO:
It's 4333 and 4 jacks which may not all be pulling weight so 3H is plenty IMO if only choice is that or 4H. Partner can see vul also so won't be quick to pass 3H anyway except with real dogs of hands.

3d is ok if playing that as 18-19 bal raise instead of mini spl.

I think 2nt is gross. Partner with stiff/small doubleton in a minor won't checkback with 4 cd hearts because 2nt will be assumed to deny 4 cd heart. After raise to 3nt, I think major making while 3nt fail going to be more common than other way around.
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#12 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-October-25, 12:34

View Poststeve2005, on 2017-October-25, 11:13, said:

Standard for 3NT is suggested spot to play based on a source of tricks in your minor.


I know, but we don't need it for that (as is quite easy if you play a weak notrump and a wide range strong NT rebid).
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#13 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-October-26, 02:12

A balanced hand with stoppers in all suits,and 7 losers if played in hearts .2NT describes the hand perfectly So I shall rebid 2NT every time with such a hand,There are no ruffing values at all.So a nine tricks contract will ,in my opinion ,must be exploited and suggested to partner.2NT does show18/19 balanced.
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#14 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-October-26, 03:13

View PostStephen Tu, on 2017-October-25, 11:20, said:

IMO:
It's 4333 and 4 jacks which may not all be pulling weight so 3H is plenty IMO if only choice is that or 4H. Partner can see vul also so won't be quick to pass 3H anyway except with real dogs of hands.

3d is ok if playing that as 18-19 bal raise instead of mini spl.

I think 2nt is gross. Partner with stiff/small doubleton in a minor won't checkback with 4 cd hearts because 2nt will be assumed to deny 4 cd heart. After raise to 3nt, I think major making while 3nt fail going to be more common than other way around.


At the worst, opener does have an option of bidding again after 2NT, whereas after 3 he doesn't. I agree bidding 2NT is not pretty, but if partner does use checkback there's nothing to say opener cannot bid 4 or 4as a response.

It is an automatic response to raise from 1M to 2M with 4 card support, but when opener is stronger, and there might be an advantage to him playing the hand, the forcing 2NT rebid defining the hand shape perfectly, even with 4 card support does at least allow a 'second bite of the cherry' for opener. I'd rather raise to 3M/4M immediately with a shapelier hand than this pudding of a 3343.
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#15 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-October-26, 04:46

View PostWellSpyder, on 2017-October-25, 07:11, said:

One of my partners likes to play that the so-called "cheapest splinter" (in this case, 3) shows 18-19 balanced with a fit. 3 is not needed as a natural jump-shift since a reverse into 2 is F. Of course, it does mean that you need 4 to show fit + shortage, as a splinter is supposed to do, but I suspect many would need to bid this high to show a splinter, anyway.


We do something similar but use the cheapest reverse. One of the hand-types is a hand too good to raise to game.
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#16 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-October-26, 07:24

View Postmsjennifer, on 2017-October-26, 02:12, said:

A balanced hand with stoppers in all suits,and 7 losers if played in hearts .2NT describes the hand perfectly So I shall rebid 2NT every time with such a hand,There are no ruffing values at all.So a nine tricks contract will ,in my opinion ,must be exploited and suggested to partner.2NT does show18/19 balanced.

You have no ruffing values it is true but partner likely does. 4H can easily make when 3N down when partner is short in a suit where your stoppers aren't good enough. There is also a possibility of 6H, if you rebid 2N it will make finding 6H much harder.

Also, partner is allowed to pass 2N. Without knowing you have 4-hearts partner won't know his hearts are running or 1-loser so may pass close hand that will make game.

If you have convention that shows balanced 4-card support then great but without it you need to show your support.
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#17 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2017-October-26, 08:26

View Postel mister, on 2017-October-25, 05:11, said:

Had this hand in a teams game last night that had me a little stumped on how best to handle it [spots are approximate]


With pard being unlimited I didn't want to plough a 4 or 3N bid straight off, but 3 or 2N don't seem ideal, either. What is best?

3NT is best as you want the lead to come up to the strong hand with its tenaces. North should not disturb this unless
he has 6+ With 19 pts opposite partners known minimum of 6 I want to be in a game contract.
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#18 User is offline   billyjef 

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Posted 2017-October-26, 08:32

View Postel mister, on 2017-October-25, 05:11, said:

Had this hand in a teams game last night that had me a little stumped on how best to handle it [spots are approximate]


With pard being unlimited I didn't want to plough a 4 or 3N bid straight off, but 3 or 2N don't seem ideal, either. What is best?


The hand has more downgrades than up grades and the presence of queens and jacks that will work better in notrump and tenaces that would prefer to be led up to in the hidden hand, I'll pretend my hand is 3333 and bid 2NT.
K&R = 16.5
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#19 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2017-October-26, 11:14

View PostPhilG007, on 2017-October-26, 08:26, said:

3NT is best as you want the lead to come up to the strong hand with its tenaces. North should not disturb this unless
he has 6+ With 19 pts opposite partners known minimum of 6 I want to be in a game contract.


lol. me bid 2/1 1 with xxxx Axxxx x xxx 4 count, not 6
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#20 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2017-October-26, 11:21

I think a 2 NT rebid is right on the hand.

You can't strictly know if 3 NT or 4 is better at this point. But you may have agreements over the 2 NT rebid that let find out more about partner's hand to push you either way. Suit contracts usually make more tricks if the hand with trump shortness can ruff. With 4-4 fits, either hand can be the "short" trump hand. If partner has as flat a hand as you, 3 NT may be the superior contract.

In the meantime, you've set it up so you declare at NT, so that the opening lead will come into your tenaces if that's where you play.
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