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compararble call is an overcall comparable to an oipening?

#1 User is offline   shevek 

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Posted 2017-October-24, 21:46

West opens 1 when South is dealer, not condoned.
South meanly opens 1 and West bids 1.
Does this have "the same or similar meaning"?

Given an agreed normal range of a 1 overcall of 9-16, is that similar enough?
(Of course, West would be fine to overcall 2 if South opens 1)
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#2 User is offline   gordontd 

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Posted 2017-October-25, 00:46

View Postshevek, on 2017-October-24, 21:46, said:

West opens 1 when South is dealer, not condoned.
South meanly opens 1 and West bids 1.
Does this have "the same or similar meaning"?

Given an agreed normal range of a 1 overcall of 9-16, is that similar enough?
(Of course, West would be fine to overcall 2 if South opens 1)

My opinion, which I have expressed here before, is that for most players a one-level overcall is not comparable to an opening bid but a two-level non-jump overcall is. I think it's worth finding out the partnership style for overcalls - 9-16 strikes me as narrower than most I encounter.
Gordon Rainsford
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#3 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-October-25, 05:01

In my opinion there is never a comparable call unless it goes all pass to the person bidding out of turn.
(IMO) In the laws they should just give some penalty to the side bidding out of turn and either void the board or let the person bid whatever they want but have his partner restricted to not taking advantage of the UI.
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#4 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2017-October-25, 08:27

View Poststeve2005, on 2017-October-25, 05:01, said:

In my opinion there is never a comparable call unless it goes all pass to the person bidding out of turn.
(IMO) In the laws they should just give some penalty to the side bidding out of turn and either void the board or let the person bid whatever they want but have his partner restricted to not taking advantage of the UI.

That's obviously not how the Laws on calls out of turn are intended to be applied. It sounds more like your opinion of what the Laws should say, not what they actually say.

#5 User is offline   BudH 

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Posted 2017-October-27, 18:35

View Postshevek, on 2017-October-24, 21:46, said:

West opens 1 when South is dealer, not condoned.
South meanly opens 1 and West bids 1.
Does this have "the same or similar meaning"?

Given an agreed normal range of a 1 overcall of 9-16, is that similar enough?
(Of course, West would be fine to overcall 2 if South opens 1)


Until we obtain some approved examples and interpretations, whether a difference in minimum (or maximum) strength difference of a(n)

(1) queen, or
(2) king, or
(3) ace, or
(4) something slightly more than an ace

will be considered close enough to meet the "similar meaning" criteria in Law 23A1, we will be debating this topic.
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#6 User is offline   Flem72 

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Posted 2017-October-28, 07:20

View PostBudH, on 2017-October-27, 18:35, said:

Until we obtain some approved examples and interpretations, whether a difference in minimum (or maximum) strength difference of a(n)

(1) queen, or
(2) king, or
(3) ace, or
(4) something slightly more than an ace

will be considered close enough to meet the "similar meaning" criteria in Law 23A1, we will be debating this topic.


Two things:

I was told by an ACBL guy yesterday that there will be Webinars on CCs/UI, but I'm betting they are only for tournament directors.
We discussed this example in, and rules guy agrees that there is some slop on values kinds of CCs. Then we talked about this iteration: East calls 1 OOT, not accepted. Dealer, S, calls 1m, W calls 1, N passes: Now this rules guy told me that he would only allow 2 if the pair plays new suits forcing after partner's overcall, not if they play constructive, NF. Hmmmm.

This post has been edited by barmar: 2017-October-28, 11:18
Reason for edit: fix obvious typo

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#7 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2017-October-28, 19:27

A little birdy whispered in my ear and told me it's comparable and he would allow it. Who should I believe?
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#8 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-October-29, 05:52

We have agreements that we treat our overcalls as opening bids as regards responding to them and keep them well up to strength (unlike our opening bids) so for us, yes it's comparable, but for some who'll overcall on AQxxx and out, it clearly isn't.
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#9 User is offline   RMB1 

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Posted 2017-October-29, 06:06

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-October-29, 05:52, said:

We have agreements that we treat our overcalls as opening bids as regards responding to them and keep them well up to strength (unlike our opening bids) so for us, yes it's comparable, but for some who'll overcall on AQxxx and out, it clearly isn't.


If you are prone to making insufficient bids or BOOTs then you should write 'sound overcalls' on your card.


When I suggested this at a local 'new laws' seminar, many did not know what a 'sound' overcall was - as would be obvious if you played here :)
Robin

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