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Who should've done more?

Poll: Who should've done more? (22 member(s) have cast votes)

Who should've done more

  1. North (9 votes [40.91%])

    Percentage of vote: 40.91%

  2. South (7 votes [31.82%])

    Percentage of vote: 31.82%

  3. 6 is almost impossible to find (6 votes [27.27%])

    Percentage of vote: 27.27%

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#1 User is offline   JanisW 

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Posted 2017-October-17, 04:48


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#2 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2017-October-17, 05:26

north + south. bad bidding
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#3 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-October-17, 05:29

What did 3 show ?

I would have bid 4 over it with the N hand which actually can't be much better in context.
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#4 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-October-17, 05:41

Both should have done more.

As Cyberyeti says, the North hand can't be much better given the bidding to date.

Is 3 forcing in your methods? The South hand is starting to look pretty big with no wasted values and a likely heart shortage opposite the three small hearts.
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#5 User is offline   JanisW 

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Posted 2017-October-17, 06:22

View PostTramticket, on 2017-October-17, 05:41, said:



Is 3 forcing in your methods?


It is something like: if you do not have any excuse, you will have to bid game.
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#6 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-October-17, 08:03

Can't see anything wrong with using a jump shift of 2 with the South hand in response to 1 except 2 in modern bidding shows 6s and a 4-7 count.

Other than that using a temporising Fourth Suit Forcing (or should that be Fourth Suit False-ing?) bid of 2 instead of 3 with the South hand might have taken the bidding in a different direction.

As Cyberyeti says, an advanced cue bid of 4 by North is a better bid than a perfunctory 4. I think that South now has to credit North with extras and be willing to explore beyond 4, though I acknowledge there are plenty of hands where 5 won't make, let alone 6. Yes it's tough to bid slam with any accuracy on the hands.
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#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-October-17, 08:54

After 4 the S hand is enormous, as little as Qx, x, AQxxx, Axxxx is plenty for a slam.

If you play 1m-2 as weak, surely you can bid 2 rather than 3 on this hand over 2 which gives more space for investigation, we don't, but still play 2 as almost forcing in the vein of the OP's 3, now over a 4 splinter it will be bid comfortably.
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#8 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2017-October-17, 12:00

Hi,

Unless you play nonstandard agreements, like wjo, the 3S bid by South is NF,
i.e. North could pass this out
South should either go via 4th suit or bid 4S direct.

After a direct 4S, North will pass, i.e. if you want to have an auction to 6S,
you need South to go via 4th suit, ..., which may a bit of a stretch.
If South goes via 4th suit, he will put on the breaks.

All in all 6S is hard to bid, but try to avoid getting dropped in a partial, when
slam makes.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: If you play SJO, than the hand is ok, starting with a SJO may be the only realistic
approach without tomuch stretching.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#9 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-October-17, 12:27

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2017-October-17, 12:00, said:

Hi,

Unless you play nonstandard agreements, like wjo, the 3S bid by South is NF,
i.e. North could pass this out
South should either go via 4th suit or bid 4S direct.

After a direct 4S, North will pass, i.e. if you want to have an auction to 6S,
you need South to go via 4th suit, ..., which may a bit of a stretch.
If South goes via 4th suit, he will put on the breaks.

All in all 6S is hard to bid, but try to avoid getting dropped in a partial, when
slam makes.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: If you play SJO, than the hand is ok, starting with a SJO may be the only realistic
approach without tomuch stretching.


3 is slightly pessimistic but not silly, where do you want to be opposite x, Qx, Axxxx, KQJ10x

Providing partner only passes with an ill fitting minimum, that's fine

I think 1-1-2-3-4-4N-5-6 is entirely plausible
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#10 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2017-October-17, 13:29

Over here, I believe most people would play 3 as non-forcing/invitational. So that's a serious underbid.

The good 7 card suit coupled with the gorgeous fitting honor doubleton in opener's first bid suit should prompt South to make a 2 FSF bid if that's available. The alternative would be an immediate 4 that would show the long , but it could be made on the same size suit with a lot less values.

Opener would continue the hand's description with 3 . Then the auction depends on bidding agreements. If fast arrival is in force, then 3 is the strongest bid. If not, then 4 would seem proper. In any case, I think North should cue over the stronger bid. At this level, the cue should agree and show at least mild slam interest.

I see the auction as something like

1 - 1
2 - 2 (FSF)
3 - 3
4 - 4 NT
5 - 6
2

#11 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2017-October-18, 01:58

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-October-17, 12:27, said:

3 is slightly pessimistic but not silly, where do you want to be opposite x, Qx, Axxxx, KQJ10x

Providing partner only passes with an ill fitting minimum, that's fine

I think 1-1-2-3-4-4N-5-6 is entirely plausible

I can agree, that you may downgrade the South hand, it is a judgement call, I am never arguing
with this, although I dont think, you will have lots of company, but I am often a lone ranger myself.
But why should North make slam move facing a limited hand? The only thing that comes from it, is telling
the opponents what to attack.
The North hand is not that much limited, it still could be in the range 12-17/18, and it did not even deny
3 card spade support, if North regular makes those moves, how is South supposed to know, when to stop in 4S,
instead of going down in 5S?
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#12 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2017-October-18, 02:03

View Postrmnka447, on 2017-October-17, 13:29, said:

Over here, I believe most people would play 3 as non-forcing/invitational. So that's a serious underbid.

The good 7 card suit coupled with the gorgeous fitting honor doubleton in opener's first bid suit should prompt South to make a 2 FSF bid if that's available. The alternative would be an immediate 4 that would show the long , but it could be made on the same size suit with a lot less values.

Opener would continue the hand's description with 3 . Then the auction depends on bidding agreements. If fast arrival is in force, then 3 is the strongest bid. If not, then 4 would seem proper. In any case, I think North should cue over the stronger bid. At this level, the cue should agree and show at least mild slam interest.

I see the auction as something like

1 - 1
2 - 2 (FSF)
3 - 3
4 - 4 NT
5 - 6

The question to answer: What is the difference in strength between a 3S / 4S bid in the given auction.
It may well be, that you should never bid 4S, given the wide range opener still can hold.
If you forbid 4S, than 3S is a request to make cue bids, that will only work, if you have the ability
to make a serious and a non serious cue bid.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#13 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-October-18, 02:36

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2017-October-18, 01:58, said:

I can agree, that you may downgrade the South hand, it is a judgement call, I am never arguing
with this, although I dont think, you will have lots of company, but I am often a lone ranger myself.
But why should North make slam move facing a limited hand? The only thing that comes from it, is telling
the opponents what to attack.
The North hand is not that much limited, it still could be in the range 12-17/18, and it did not even deny
3 card spade support, if North regular makes those moves, how is South supposed to know, when to stop in 4S,
instead of going down in 5S?


I don't think 5 is in doubt often if 3 is what the OP says it is, and the hands where it is will decline the slam try.

TBH AK 7th and a card that partner won't devalue with the heart splinter, slam will not be much worse than the diamond finesse.
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#14 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2017-October-18, 04:39

It is important to know what jump shifts you are playing and the affect it has on the rest of your bidding.
I play an immediate 2 as weak 6 cards and 3 as weak 7 cards, which would be my bid without K
Therefore responder's rebid of 3 is accurate for me and I would rebid 2 with the same hand with only 6. With more hcp i will bid 2. With less spades and 11 count I have to bid 2[d] and trust p to keep the bidding alive if possible.

I think it is clear for north to bid 4 Qx (opposite a known 7 carder), no losers. P can still sign off in 4 if he is unsuitable.
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#15 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-October-18, 05:33

6S is difficult to bid.If the club King is replaced by the Ace then a 4 Heart bid is acceptable.As it is the hand will not be easy to manage on a heart lead and spade Jack not falling.
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#16 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-October-18, 05:52

View Postmsjennifer, on 2017-October-18, 05:33, said:

6S is difficult to bid.If the club King is replaced by the Ace then a 4 Heart bid is acceptable.As it is the hand will not be easy to manage on a heart lead and spade Jack not falling.


The contract is still with the odds, it makes if:

Diamonds are 3-3
Diamonds are 4-2/5-1 with the 10 in the short hand

I make it 55% ish

OK, it's less than that due to trumps 4-0 offside, but on a heart lead you can still survive that a fair bit of the time
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#17 User is offline   PhilG007 

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Posted 2017-October-18, 08:17

View PostJanisW, on 2017-October-17, 04:48, said:



I would respond 2 on the South hand. North is then left in no doubt of what the
trump suit should be. This is forcing to at least game.If North bids 3 South simply converts to 4
and game,at least has been reached. Holding the North cards,I would then realise the Q has become a enormous card
and I would start slam investigations eventually reaching 6 which is laydown
Correct bidding should be
1 2
3 4
4NoTrumps 5 (2 no Q)
6 Pass
It's not a sin to play bridge,but it's a crime if you play it badly(!) ;)
"It is not enough to be a good player,you must also play well"
- Dr Tarrasch(1862-1934)German Chess Grandmaster
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#18 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2017-October-18, 08:40

If a 2S response is weak, as in 2/1, then the 3S bid should be forcing, in which case north has a clear 4H cue bid.

If a 2S response is GF, as in Acol, then south should go through the fourth suit, which is usually played as game forcing these days. In this case the bidding might go;
1D-1S-2C-2H-3C-3S-4H... which should give you a chance of reaching 6S.

Personally I wouldn’t lose too much sleep over missing the slam. Note that if souths red suits are reversed six is a very poor contract. Only south knows of his diamond fit, so it is he that needs to go past four, probably with a 5D cue bid. A 4NT bid by north, unless S has shown the fit, is a shot in the dark.
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#19 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2017-October-18, 12:53

View PostGrahamJson, on 2017-October-18, 08:40, said:

If a 2S response is weak, as in 2/1, then the 3S bid should be forcing, in which case north has a clear 4H cue bid.

If a 2S response is GF, as in Acol, then south should go through the fourth suit, which is usually played as game forcing these days. In this case the bidding might go;
1D-1S-2C-2H-3C-3S-4H... which should give you a chance of reaching 6S.

Personally I wouldn’t lose too much sleep over missing the slam. Note that if souths red suits are reversed six is a very poor contract. Only south knows of his diamond fit, so it is he that needs to go past four, probably with a 5D cue bid. A 4NT bid by north, unless S has shown the fit, is a shot in the dark.


From a systemic standpoint, it's awkward to have both 3S and fourth suit be game forces. One of them should be GF; the other one should be able to serve as an invite (if you play 4SF as only a one-round force, it can be invite or better). Otherwise, you have no good way to show an invite with a good six-bagger.

Some older 2/1 systems like Eastern Scientific played responder's second round jump in the major he bid on the first round as GF, with 4SF as a one-round force. So to invite, you would bid 4th suit and then the major on the cheapest (usually 3) level.

That treatment is considered passe today, because for a variety of reasons, it's generally best for 2/1 to set a game force, so that the partnership can explore for slam. The immediate jump wastes some bidding room, so it's better to use it as an invite.

Cheers,
Mike
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#20 User is offline   JanisW 

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Posted 2017-October-18, 15:01

Thank you all for your insights.
I conclude that S should've bid 2H 4SF, though some expressed the thought that 3S is not a serious underbid, as it is gameforcing opposite almost any ordinary opener.
Is the S-Hand really a 4SF followed by the stronger -bid (which would be 3) after all it's a 6 Looser Hand with a horrible -holding?

With S failing to make a gf-bid, N has more difficulty to bid the 4-cue. But I guess he cannot be much better in context and should at least give S the good news, that he has serious extras for the bidding so far.

I would've expected N to do more.

Thanks
JW
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