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How do you bid this 2/1 ACBL

#21 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2017-October-12, 08:13

View PostPhilG007, on 2017-October-12, 08:00, said:

I am simply going by the illustrative hand. What you're proposing is hypothetical

Unfortunately you don't get to see partner's hand before making a bid. Yes, if you knew that west held a rock crusher then you can open 3D, safe in the knowledge that partner will ask for key cards and bid seven. However west's actual hand could have been held by north, or south, in which case you would be happy to open 5D and make life as difficult as possible for them.

A good rule in these situations is immediately to bid as far as you are willing to go. If you were to open 3D would you be willing to let N/S play in 4H or 4S? Probably not. You would sacrifice in 5D. In which case bid 5D straight away and let oppo do the guessing. A further advantage of this is that if partner doubles their contract you can safely pass, knowing that partner knows you have very long diamonds.
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#22 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2017-October-12, 08:32

View PostPhilG007, on 2017-October-12, 07:42, said:


7 There are 9 diamond tricks,1 club
and the remaining three tricks will come from the major suit AK's. I'm critical of East's 5 diamond opener.
He seems to have forgotten that while pre-empting hinders the opponents,it also obstructs partner too.
3diamonds is the correct choice. A typical auction might be

34NT( rkcb agreeing diamonds)
5 (2+QD) 7


Gå och dra något gammalt över dig. totalt nonsens 3d bud av en idiot!!!
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#23 User is offline   bid_em_up 

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Posted 2017-October-12, 10:25

View PostLBengtsson, on 2017-October-12, 08:32, said:

G och dra ngot gammalt ver dig. totalt nonsens 3d bud av en idiot!!!

Loosely translated that appears to say "anybody bidding a total nonsense 3D is an idiot". And I don't even know what language it was. 😄
Is the word "pass" not in your vocabulary?
So many experts, not enough X cards.
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#24 User is offline   bid_em_up 

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Posted 2017-October-12, 10:27

View PostTylerE, on 2017-October-11, 12:28, said:

9.5 playing tricks is a 2 opener in my book. Might get us too high when partner is broke, but with that many sure tricks in hand it can't go THAT badly.

I'd call the director on you as my partner if you opened 2c on this. 😉
Is the word "pass" not in your vocabulary?
So many experts, not enough X cards.
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#25 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2017-October-12, 13:29

5D seems like the normal opening bid and one that I expect 90%+ of experts would choose in a poll. Given that, how to reach the grand?

Obviously, any bid of a new suit by responder should be looking for a grand (otherwise, just bid the small slam, as there is no room for exploration). There are two nethods you can use: asking or showing. For a variety of reasons, I think asking is much better when the opener has preempted. If you're going for slam opposite a preempt, especially for a grand, there will never be more questions than: (A) Do you have first (for a small slam, first or second) round control of Suit X and (B) are our trump solid? The showing method doesn't really get you there.

If you use the asking method here to look for a grand, you have to have methods about what suit each bid asks about. Most common over a five level bid is that a bid of a suit asks about that suit up to spades, and then 5NT is clubs and so on. So here 5NT asks about clubs. 6C would show first round control but doubt about trump; 6D would show no first round control of clubs; 7D would show first round control of clubs and good trump. Since you can't have AKQ of d and Ac and open 5D in first seat, opener should just bid 7D over 5NT. How could he ever have any more than KQd and Ac? The other way of looking at it is that if partner lacked BOTH the AKQd AND the Ac, he has no business making a grand slam try.

Cheers,
Mike
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#26 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-October-12, 16:10

View Postmiamijd, on 2017-October-12, 13:29, said:

If you use the asking method here to look for a grand, you have to have methods about what suit each bid asks about. Most common over a five level bid is that a bid of a suit asks about that suit up to spades, and then 5NT is clubs and so on. So here 5NT asks about clubs. 6C would show first round control but doubt about trump; 6D would show no first round control of clubs; 7D would show first round control of clubs and good trump. Since you can't have AKQ of d and Ac and open 5D in first seat, opener should just bid 7D over 5NT. How could he ever have any more than KQd and Ac? The other way of looking at it is that if partner lacked BOTH the AKQd AND the Ac, he has no business making a grand slam try.

Cheers,
Mike


That's an interesting way of reaching the grand, Mike. Thanks for posting it. Personally I haven't seen this method over five level pre-empts. There again, the chance of holding a 9 card suit is about 1 in 2600 or thereabouts, I believe, and partner enquiring about slam remotely higher, so I'm bound to have forgotten it by the next time I need it. Just my luck :)
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#27 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2017-October-12, 16:27

View Postdickiegera, on 2017-October-11, 08:16, said:



Is there a better way to bid this. I know there is however I am open to suggestions.


The newish players in our club would bid

1D - 1S
3D - 4NT
5S - 7D

and wonder why they got such a good score.
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#28 User is offline   brown99 

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Posted 2017-October-12, 17:53

View Postdickiegera, on 2017-October-11, 08:16, said:



Is there a better way to bid this. I know there is however I am open to suggestions.

Played 8 times 1 pair was in 7 1 pair in 6
and 3 pair in 6NT
Makes 7 any lead.
Makes 7NT on any lead except a club lead in which case NT only makes 2NT


I think opening 5D is ok according to rule of 2 & 3
The problem2 is only quality of trump suit. My opinion is to bid 5NT to ask partner for top honors.
5D - 5NT
7D yes 2 of 3 top honors.
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#29 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2017-October-12, 19:02

View PostThe_Badger, on 2017-October-12, 16:10, said:

That's an interesting way of reaching the grand, Mike. Thanks for posting it. Personally I haven't seen this method over five level pre-empts. There again, the chance of holding a 9 card suit is about 1 in 2600 or thereabouts, I believe, and partner enquiring about slam remotely higher, so I'm bound to have forgotten it by the next time I need it. Just my luck :)


Probably not over five-level preempts, but it's really a logical extension of the more standard jump rebid control asks you've seen over 2, 3 and 4-level preempts. Most folks are familiar with auctions like

2M 4m
2h 3S
3m 4M
4H 4S (if not Kickback)
4M 5m

and the like as control asking bids. Over 2M, for example, a bid of 4m has no real use otherwise (you can bid 3m if forcing first, or 2NT first with the normal type of hand). Same with 2h 3S (can bid 2S if forcing or 2NT if not first). Same with 4M preempts.

The reason is that a preemptor (especially at the 3 level and above) has narrowly defined his hand. You don't want to show him what you have; you want to ask him to narrow his hand even more so you can basically see both hands. Indeed, if you are interested in a slam, you must have first round control of at least two of the three side suits to investigate a slam. If you have that, and if you clearly have the tricks for slam, what you generally want to do is ask about the preemptor's holding in the fourth suit. There are a number of ways to play responses, but you normally have to be able to show first round control, second round control, and no control, and then for a follow-up ask, you want to be able to distinguish the high card (A or K) from the distributional control (stiff or void). You probably also want some way to be sure your trumps are halfway solid.

There's no reason why this shouldn't extent to bids over 5-level preempts as well.

Cheers,
Mike
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#30 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2017-October-12, 19:09

View Postsfi, on 2017-October-12, 16:27, said:

The newish players in our club would bid

1D - 1S
3D - 4NT
5S - 7D

and wonder why they got such a good score.


You have some very good "newish" players then! In my experience most would open 5D ("I only have 9 HCPs, partner, but I do have 9 diamonds"), or if they did open 1D they wouldn't rebid 3D. And most Wests might opt for 2S over 1D, or a final contract in spades or no-trumps as "they only have one diamond".

I'd bid 5D-5S; 6C-7D. 6C has to be a first-round control at this level.

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#31 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2017-October-12, 19:34

View Postahydra, on 2017-October-12, 19:09, said:

You have some very good "newish" players then!


Maybe, but two of them (out of two asked) yesterday separately thought this was the obvious auction.
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#32 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2017-October-12, 20:47

View Postbrown99, on 2017-October-12, 17:53, said:

I think opening 5D is ok according to rule of 2 & 3
The problem2 is only quality of trump suit. My opinion is to bid 5NT to ask partner for top honors.
5D - 5NT
7D yes 2 of 3 top honors.


And next time opener will have the Q rather than the A!!
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#33 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-October-12, 23:08

Frankly speaking, it is the ninth card in diamonds which is causing difficulty in bidding.We open 5D only with a rule of minus 500 in mind and purely preemptive.So we open this hand only 1Diamond.But I am not afraid to admit that further bidding is pretty hypothetical.Even the Precision MAESTRO may not be able to find a systematically agreed bidding sequence to reach 7Diamonds.It is easier to bid it when we see all 26 cards ,isnt it?
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#34 User is offline   mosh0223 

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Posted 2017-October-13, 06:46

In this cards layout, meaning, East is the dealer, and none is Vul the final auction should be 7NT no matter the opponents cards distribution.
But if North is the dealer and holds 8 Heart cards and 6 HCP, he would bid 4, and east should PASS. West would bid 4 and the auction will end with 5 by East.

Here is one option for distribution:



.

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#35 User is offline   Joe_Old 

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Posted 2017-October-13, 08:40

Playing GIB 2/1 the auction could go:

1 2 (Soloway jump shift)

3 3 (forcing)

4 4 NT (RKC)

5 7

2 problems. Responder is equally likely to bid 7 NT, and everyone I know would open 5. (So I like Miamijd's solution).
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#36 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2017-October-13, 09:25

View Postmosh0223, on 2017-October-13, 06:46, said:

In this cards layout, meaning, East is the dealer, and none is Vul the final auction should be 7NT no matter the opponents cards distribution.
But if North is the dealer and holds 8 Heart cards and 6 HCP, he would bid 4, and east should PASS. West would bid 4 and the auction will end with 5 by East.

Here is one option for distribution:



.


I can't imagine anyone passing over 4H on the east hand. However, if someone did, a subsequent bid of 5D over 4S would be a slam try agreeing spades and showing a diamond suit. Something like Kxxx x AQJxxx xxx
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#37 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2017-October-13, 12:16

View PostGrahamJson, on 2017-October-13, 09:25, said:

I can't imagine anyone passing over 4H on the east hand. However, if someone did, a subsequent bid of 5D over 4S would be a slam try agreeing spades and showing a diamond suit. Something like Kxxx x AQJxxx xxx

Regardless of what 5 after passing shows, I cannot imagine west with a hand most of us open 2 passing 5 over 4. Once west bids 5 showing great slam interest and a cue, the pair should at least reach 6 and hopefully 7 after the 6 cue to follow.
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#38 User is online   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-October-13, 18:41

View PostGrahamJson, on 2017-October-12, 06:42, said:

It's 5D-6D for me. Anything other than 5D on the east hand is resulting. Yes, you miss a cold 7D, but far more often you will put oppo under pressure and get a good score that way. After a 5D opening perhaps west could bid 5H, after which east bids 6C, which must show first round control. Then maybe west could risk 7D. But it's a lot of perhapses and maybes.

2C has been mentioned as a possible opening. In my book 2C should always be based on good high cad values, not just lots of playing tricks. Give east AK in hearts instead of xx and maybe 2C is reasonable, but that's about the minimum needed.


I admit this would have been my auction, as well. I don't know of any standard treatments that I would expect most advanced players to know.
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#39 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-October-14, 03:12

View Postdickiegera, on 2017-October-11, 08:16, said:

Is there a better way to bid this. I know there is however I am open to suggestions. Played 8 times 1 pair was in 7 1 pair in 6 and 3 pair in 6NT Makes 7 any lead. Makes 7NT on any lead except a club lead in which case NT only makes 2NT
IMO, without special agreement, the auction should go 5 - 6. 6N seems a wild gamble.
If you could establish that the opener had 2 keycards + the trump queen, then 7N would be reasonable (hoping opener has 2 s or opponents fail to lead a )
Perhaps, over a 5m pre-empt, you could agree that the cheapest new suit asks for half-keycards, by steps (1, 1+Q, 2, 2+Q), as in the auction on the left. Also, a 5N rebid by responder might be a sign-off.

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#40 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2017-October-14, 11:10

For high level preempts you can simply replying in turbo fashion.

1st step even
2nd step odd no Q
3rd odd+Q no extras (we might have all the keycard but only 12 tricks)
4th odd+Q extras/sources of tricks (meaning if we have all the keyc we need to be in 7)
5th to play

At the 5 level VUL you can probably ignore the Q of trumps and save a step.
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