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Declarer Opening LOOT

#1 User is offline   Chris3875 

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Posted 2017-October-08, 00:24

Auction was over and Declarer promptly led a small diamond .......

I couldn't actually find anything to cover this infraction, so said "pick it up and play on".
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#2 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2017-October-08, 01:17

View PostChris3875, on 2017-October-08, 00:24, said:

Auction was over and Declarer promptly led a small diamond .......

I couldn't actually find anything to cover this infraction, so said "pick it up and play on".

Quote

Law 54E: If a player of the declaring side attempts to make an opening lead Law 24 applies.

Quote

Law 24: When the Director determines that during the auction, because of a player’s own error, one or more cards of that player’s hand were in position for the face to be seen by his partner, the Director shall require that every such card be placed face up on the table until the auction ends. Information from cards thus exposed is authorized for the non-offending side but unauthorized for the offending side (see Law 16C).
A. Low Card Not Prematurely Led
If it is a single card below the rank of an honor and not prematurely led, there is no further rectification (but see E following).
B. Single Card of Honor Rank or Card Prematurely Led
If it is a single card of honor rank or is any card prematurely led, offender’s partner must pass when next it is his turn to call (see Law 72C when a pass damages the non-offending side).
C. Two or More Cards Are Exposed
If two or more cards are so exposed offender’s partner must pass when next it is his turn to call (see Law 72C when a pass damages the non-offending side).
D. Declaring side
If the offender becomes declarer or dummy the cards are picked up and returned to the hand.
E. Defenders
If at the conclusion of the auction the offender is to become a defender, every such card becomes a penalty card (see Laws 50 and 51).

Technically, the card should remain on the table until a proper lead by the correct defender is made (face down). But then declarer picks up his LOOT, so in effect that's what you ruled.
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#3 User is offline   Chris3875 

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Posted 2017-October-08, 03:14

Whew ... someone told me that Declarer should have become Dummy. That seemed weird !
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#4 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2017-October-08, 03:50

View PostChris3875, on 2017-October-08, 03:14, said:

Whew ... someone told me that Declarer should have become Dummy. That seemed weird !

"Someone" believe they know the laws and act accordingly - they are wrong.
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#5 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-October-08, 05:18

View PostChris3875, on 2017-October-08, 03:14, said:

Whew ... someone told me that Declarer should have become Dummy. That seemed weird !


This applies only to Mixed Pairs.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#6 User is offline   sanst 

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Posted 2017-October-08, 06:52

View PostChris3875, on 2017-October-08, 03:14, said:

Whew ... someone told me that Declarer should have become Dummy. That seemed weird !

You can always ask that someone which Law says so. Usually you don't get an answer.
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#7 User is offline   weejonnie 

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Posted 2017-October-08, 13:32

View Postblackshoe, on 2017-October-08, 01:17, said:

Technically, the card should remain on the table until a proper lead by the correct defender is made (face down). But then declarer picks up his LOOT, so in effect that's what you ruled.

The law says "Until the auction ends" (3 successive passes in rotation) - which means before the opening lead is made (face down). Only a few seconds (usually).
The hardest director decisions inevitably are caused by the first failure to call at the appropriate time.
"Funny hand: both sides can make 4 hearts - VM"
After 85 years of bridge, the laws will finally define when dummy ceases to be dummy - at the end of play.
After a claim, play is now suspended, not ended. So dummy remains dummy, after a law 69 or during a law 70 ruling.
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#8 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2017-October-08, 15:05

Fair enough.
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#9 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2017-October-08, 15:22

View Postweejonnie, on 2017-October-08, 13:32, said:

The law says "Until the auction ends" (3 successive passes in rotation) - which means before the opening lead is made (face down). Only a few seconds (usually).

I have only one comment here:
From what I know about the preparation of the 2017 laws I must conclude that there is a severe misprint here.

The laws distinguish between "Auction Period" (Law 17) and "Auction" (Law 22).
While the Auction period ends irrevocably when the opening lead is faced (by either defender) the auction may be resumed for various reasons during the auction period.

And Law 24 was intended to apply for any card exposed during the auction period. The current text simply doesn't make sense.

Consider the following sequence of events:
1: The auction ends with three consecutive passes (Law 22) and the opening lead is made face down by the presumed LHO.
2: Presumed RHO now asks questions about the auction (Law 20F)
3: The answers to these questions are such that misinformation from presumed declaring side is revealed, and the last presumed defender to call (pass) requests a change to this last pass (Law 21B).
4: His request is granted and the auction is resumed. The final outcome of this continued auction is that the originally presumed defending side now becomes the declaring side.

Now how should a card exposed during the first part of the auction be treated?

Do I need to elaborate any further?
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#10 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2017-October-08, 20:34

The question is what happens to the card exposed by the putative declarer (or putative dummy for that matter) before the first final pass of the auction. As weejonnie points out, immediately after the final pass, the card is picked up and put back in the owner's hand. Then the opening lead is chosen and made face down. Now, Sven, the rest of your scenario plays out. That the card that was exposed belongs to someone who is now a defender is irrelevant; rectification for that irregularity has already been made. I would say though that knowledge of that card, and inferences that might be made from that knowledge, are unauthorized to the owner's partner.
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I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
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#11 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2017-October-09, 01:21

View Postblackshoe, on 2017-October-08, 20:34, said:

The question is what happens to the card exposed by the putative declarer (or putative dummy for that matter) before the first final pass of the auction. As weejonnie points out, immediately after the final pass, the card is picked up and put back in the owner's hand. Then the opening lead is chosen and made face down. Now, Sven, the rest of your scenario plays out. That the card that was exposed belongs to someone who is now a defender is irrelevant; rectification for that irregularity has already been made. I would say though that knowledge of that card, and inferences that might be made from that knowledge, are unauthorized to the owner's partner.

Please include Laws 24 D and E in your consideration; when will the exposed card eventually be a penalty card? There are two equally important possibilities: The offender was originally to become a defender but eventually became declarer or dummy, and the other way round.

IMHO it is important to realize that whenever one of the three consecutive passes closing the auction is changed as permitted in Law 21B1{a} this pass is withdrawn so that the auction has no longer ended (by three consecutive passes).

I see no other way to make sense of this part of the 2017 laws.
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#12 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2017-October-09, 15:36

Sven, you gave me one scenario. I answered that. Now you want to add a different scenario. Fine. The same principle, that at the time the first "final" pass is made, the player with the exposed card is putatively either a defender or a member of the declaring side, applies. Which of Laws 24D and 24E is pertinent depends on to which side the offender apparently belongs at the time the "final" pass is made. The appropriate rectification is applied. If, after that, the auction is reopened, that does not change anything.
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#13 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2017-October-09, 17:05

View Postblackshoe, on 2017-October-09, 15:36, said:

Sven, you gave me one scenario. I answered that. Now you want to add a different scenario. Fine. The same principle, that at the time the first "final" pass is made, the player with the exposed card is putatively either a defender or a member of the declaring side, applies. Which of Laws 24D and 24E is pertinent depends on to which side the offender apparently belongs at the time the "final" pass is made. The appropriate rectification is applied. If, after that, the auction is reopened, that does not change anything.

My "first" scenario did not specify which side had a card exposed during the auction so the analysis of that scenario required two different considerations.

I didn't change my scenario with my second post, I simply pointed out the fact that your analysis was incomplete.

And to your last statement: Please show where in the Laws you find anything to the effect that an auction is reopened? As far as I can understand the auction is temporarily curtailed when a call is changed and then continued with the replacing call. It is still (legally) within the same auction (and auction period).
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#14 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2017-October-09, 17:22

It doesn't matter whether you call it "reopened" or something else.
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#15 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2017-October-10, 03:20

View Postblackshoe, on 2017-October-09, 17:22, said:

It doesn't matter whether you call it "reopened" or something else.

My point is that an auction is not (legally) ended when a presumed closing pass is withdrawn.
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#16 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2017-October-10, 09:52

View Postpran, on 2017-October-10, 03:20, said:

My point is that an auction is not (legally) ended when a presumed closing pass is withdrawn.

Law 24: "until the auction ends".
Law 22: "The auction ends when: one or more players having bid, there are three consecutive passes in rotation subsequent to the last bid."
The auction ends. The card is picked up (if it belongs to a member of the putative declaring side).
Law 20B1{a}: "Until the end of the auction period (see Law 17D) and provided that his partner has not subsequently called, a player may change a call without other rectification for his side when the Director judges that the decision to make the call could well have been influenced by misinformation given to the player by an opponent."
Law 17D1: "The auction period ends when, subsequent to the end of the auction as in Law 22A, either defender faces an opening lead."
If under this law the final pass is withdrawn and a bid or double substituted, the auction continues from that point. So what? Rectification for the exposed card under Law 24 has already been completed. Do you suggest that rectification should be cancelled? Per what law?
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#17 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2017-October-10, 15:34

View Postblackshoe, on 2017-October-10, 09:52, said:

Law 24: "until the auction ends".
Law 22: "The auction ends when: one or more players having bid, there are three consecutive passes in rotation subsequent to the last bid."
The auction ends. The card is picked up (if it belongs to a member of the putative declaring side).
Law 20B1{a}: "Until the end of the auction period (see Law 17D) and provided that his partner has not subsequently called, a player may change a call without other rectification for his side when the Director judges that the decision to make the call could well have been influenced by misinformation given to the player by an opponent."
Law 17D1: "The auction period ends when, subsequent to the end of the auction as in Law 22A, either defender faces an opening lead."
If under this law the final pass is withdrawn and a bid or double substituted, the auction continues from that point. So what? Rectification for the exposed card under Law 24 has already been completed. Do you suggest that rectification should be cancelled? Per what law?

I do not believe that the effect of the change in Law 24 from the 2007 laws to the 2017 laws is intended.

Under the 2007 laws the exposed card(s) remains face up on the table until the auction period ends. At this time we do indeed have a declarer, a dummy and two defenders.

Under the 2017 laws the exposed card(s) remains face up on the table only until the auction ends. At this time we only have a presumed declarer, a presumed dummy and two presumed defenders.

To repeat the problem:

Say that the initial auction ends with South as presumed declarer but after the continued auction East becomes the actual declarer.

Consider
case 1: West has exposed the Queen of spades during the initial auction
case 2: North has exposed the Queen of hearts during the initial auction

For each case rule what shall happen to the offending side and their respective exposed card at the moment the initial auction "ends" and again at the end of the auction period.

There is absolutely no problem under the 2007 laws, but I am really interested in your (detailed and complete) rulings under the 2017 laws?

(Please remember that there is no such thing as a penalty card during the auction period!)
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#18 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2017-October-11, 03:59

Yawn.
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#19 User is offline   axman 

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Posted 2017-October-11, 09:56

View PostChris3875, on 2017-October-08, 00:24, said:

Auction was over and Declarer promptly led a small diamond .......

I couldn't actually find anything to cover this infraction, so said "pick it up and play on".


(Specifying declarer to be south), given the supplied facts:

South's exposed card, being the first card played (definition of OL) to the first trick, is an OLOOT.
The OL having been made, dummy is spread (L41C). L54 is irrelevant as N did not lead face down.
W may accept the OLOOT by playing to the trick, and it is treated as in turn (L53A). or,
W may decline to accept, and the lead reverts to W** (L53A) and South's card may be withdrawn (47B).

** if south declines to withdraw his card it remains a lead, defining the suit of the trick.
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#20 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-October-11, 10:04

View Postaxman, on 2017-October-11, 09:56, said:

(Specifying declarer to be south), given the supplied facts:

South's exposed card, being the first card played (definition of OL) to the first trick, is an OLOOT.
The OL having been made, dummy is spread (L41C). L54 is irrelevant as N did not lead face down.
W may accept the OLOOT by playing to the trick, and it is treated as in turn (L53A). or,
W may decline to accept, and the lead reverts to W** (L53A) and South's card may be withdrawn (47B).

** if south declines to withdraw his card it remains a lead, defining the suit of the trick.


Really? You think that South can insist on leading? Hilarious.
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