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Irish Interpretation Rescue or Remain?

#1 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2017-October-06, 09:01


Irish Premier League. IMPS converted to VPs.

Which of these is partner's redouble?:
a) We are making this, pard
b) I am not sure we are making this, pard.
c) I think it is unlikely we are making this, pard; bid something.
'When I write a Law,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less.'
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#2 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-October-06, 09:31

In my view, expert players do not XX except for a reason, and here, in my opinion, XX should always be used as SOS. 3NTX made would have been a good score, so what's the point of being greedy and redoubling for the sake of it.
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#3 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2017-October-06, 12:13

4

I agree with Badger.

Partner might be bidding some on distribution rather than strictly lots of points. You've shown your stopper and some values yet partner has concerns. You don't hold enough to be willing to dismiss those concerns and sit.
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#4 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2017-October-06, 15:58

800 > 550
1000 > 650

those are good reasons for redoubling imo.
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#5 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-October-06, 18:23

View Postwank, on 2017-October-06, 15:58, said:

800 > 550
1000 > 650

those are good reasons for redoubling imo.


Yes, but an agreement here should be based on frequency.
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#6 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-October-06, 20:24

Given that this is expert level, there's probably a lot more going on than just bidding. Psychology perhaps? A bit of bluff? Partnership understanding? The luck of the Irish even?

My final thought (after 30 minutes of 3am analysis) is South has his cards, and partner has thrown himself into the mix light non-vulnerable with shape by doubling opener's 3 bid.
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#7 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2017-October-07, 01:27

View PostThe_Badger, on 2017-October-06, 20:24, said:

Given that this is expert level, there's probably a lot more going on than just bidding. Psychology perhaps? A bit of bluff? Partnership understanding? The luck of the Irish even?

My final thought (after 30 minutes of 3am analysis) is South has his cards, and partner has thrown himself into the mix light non-vulnerable with shape by doubling opener's 3 bid.

If you've doubled light then I think you just have to sit the double as the chances of finding a sensible playable spot starting at the four level seems small, particularly when partner is an unpassed hand. So I think the redouble should be strength here.
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#8 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-October-07, 02:58

View Postpaulg, on 2017-October-07, 01:27, said:

If you've doubled light then I think you just have to sit the double as the chances of finding a sensible playable spot starting at the four level seems small, particularly when partner is an unpassed hand. So I think the redouble should be strength here.


I was going to write on my previous comment "Actually I don't like 4 either" but that's stating the obvious.

What I was trying to deduce in those 30 minutes in the middle of the night is the hand types that would justify this bidding - one for Nige1, our resident expert on this, no doubt. We can see perhaps 14HCPs - give the 3 opener KQJxxxx - leaving 26HCPs. East Redoubling on a 16/17 count, let's say, leaves South with a paltry 10 or so, hardly a hand to chance a Dbl of 3NT in the first instance.

It is also statistically more probable that East has doubled light but I take on board all what others have commented. However, let's not forget that North has a possible bid over the XX too if West stands his ground and passes. I personally think there's a bit of bluff going on here nevertheless, and things are not what they seem.
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#9 User is offline   mikestar13 

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Posted 2017-October-07, 04:38

I think this should show doubt in the passout seat, encouraging him to run but allowing him to play 3NT with some extras and spades securely double stopped opposite a small stiff. If redoubler were sure 3NTX makes, he could just pass; if sure 3NTX.is going down,he could bid something himself.

In contrast, XX directly over the X is strictly "turn the cube".
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#10 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2017-October-07, 05:11

View PostVampyr, on 2017-October-06, 18:23, said:

Yes, but an agreement here should be based on frequency.


frequency * size of gain when it comes up

i redouble frequently enough anyway
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#11 User is offline   broze 

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Posted 2017-October-07, 06:13

View Postwank, on 2017-October-07, 05:11, said:

frequency * size of gain when it comes up

i redouble frequently enough anyway


Plus the times your opponents don't double for fear of a natural redouble and you are going off.

However, oddly enough, without discussion I would assume that redouble was expressing doubt as I believe this is a more common agreement.
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#12 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2017-October-07, 06:13

Not quite sure what the big difference btn b and c is but in either case IMHO east is expressing doubt about 3n making. I have few doubts they are relatively balanced 0445 and mainly bid for takeout and were not expecting to get stuck with 3n.
They already hated passing 3n but the idea of playing 3n x was too much to bear so they begged partner to pull somewhere.

super easy 4d bid
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#13 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2017-October-07, 13:36

View Postgszes, on 2017-October-07, 06:13, said:

super easy 4d bid

Partner has KJxx ATxxx ATxx and 4D is making but 3NTxx is two off and West passed. I think this redouble is just takeout, and says that you have a minimum 1-4-4-4 or 0-4-(4 5). East-West led the Butler in this year's Camrose, so what do I know.
'When I write a Law,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less.'
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#14 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2017-October-07, 15:36

View Postlamford, on 2017-October-07, 13:36, said:

Partner has KJxx ATxxx ATxx and 4D is making but 3NTxx is two off and West passed. I think this redouble is just takeout, and says that you have a minimum 1-4-4-4 or 0-4-(4 5). East-West led the Butler in this year's Camrose, so what do I know.

Experts do a lot of good, even great things at the bridge table, but are not exempt from making their share of mistakes. But you don't often hear about the bad things they do. Most information you get about the experts is like the televised pro golf tournaments. They concentrate on showing the pros who are in contention and doing well not the pros who aren't or didn't make the cut. So there's a false impression that pros (and bridge experts) are infallible.

You've made a reasonable assessment about the redouble after 3 NTx. I'd expect most experts recall that old saw "If you want to get greedy and act like a hog, expect to get lead to the slaughter." 3 NTx making is a really good IMP result, so there's no reason to redouble. Where a redouble for sitting might be made is in a contract where there's no place to run, and, redoubler sees the contract is pretty much a lock to make. But here, the exact hand held and the hands you inferred are distinct possibilities, else the failure to compete will let the preemptors steal you blind. So the SOS is needed here to alert advancer about doubler's hand and the potential problem with 3 NT.

If West sat for the redouble, then there was a misunderstanding of some sort. Or possibly, for some reason, West thought that sitting might get the preemptor to run. In either case, it resulted in a vulnerable game swing equivalent for North/South never a good thing at IMPs.
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#15 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-October-08, 00:13

View Postrmnka447, on 2017-October-07, 15:36, said:

If West sat for the redouble, then there was a misunderstanding of some sort. Or possibly, for some reason, West thought that sitting might get the preemptor to run. In either case, it resulted in a vulnerable game swing equivalent for North/South never a good thing at IMPs.


After posting my comments on here, I accessed the board in question:
{comments}


As you can see 4 makes. If one pair had bid that, and the other had "sacrificed" in 3NTxx-2 then it would have been a flat board. Now that is an Irish Interpretation, to be sure, to be sure :)
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#16 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2017-October-09, 09:05

View PostThe_Badger, on 2017-October-08, 00:13, said:

After posting my comments on here, I accessed the board in question:
{comments}


As you can see 4 makes. If one pair had bid that, and the other had "sacrificed" in 3NTxx-2 then it would have been a flat board. Now that is an Irish Interpretation, to be sure, to be sure :)

The board was played in 4D at the other table. Where is there any indication that 4S makes?
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#17 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-October-09, 09:41

View PostThe_Badger, on 2017-October-08, 00:13, said:

After posting my comments on here, I accessed the board in question: http://www.bridgebas...ch.php?id=53482. As you can see 4 makes. If one pair had bid that, and the other had "sacrificed" in 3NTxx-2 then it would have been a flat board. Now that is an Irish Interpretation, to be sure, to be sure :)

View PostGrahamJson, on 2017-October-09, 09:05, said:

The board was played in 4D at the other table. Where is there any indication that 4S makes?

Click on board 5, 3nXX-2 to confirm that NS can make 4 if they bid it :)
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#18 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2017-October-09, 09:58

View PostThe_Badger, on 2017-October-08, 00:13, said:

After posting my comments on here, I accessed the board in question:
{comments}


As you can see 4 makes. If one pair had bid that, and the other had "sacrificed" in 3NTxx-2 then it would have been a flat board. Now that is an Irish Interpretation, to be sure, to be sure :)

It certainly would be Irish to redouble in the passout seat to concede 600 and flatten the board (well win an IMP) rather than concede 300.
'When I write a Law,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less.'
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#19 User is offline   Dinarius 

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Posted 2017-October-18, 06:40

Interesting that East is happy to pay in 3NT and only get nervous (or so it appears) when it's doubled.

If East doesn't like 3NTx, might it be less ambiguous to force partner to choose by bidding 4♣️ rather than redoubling?

Though, I guess he does give West the option of passing XX if West thinks that South has blundered.

D.
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