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Suggested follow ups after transfer sequence

#1 User is offline   hirowla 

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Posted 2017-October-02, 09:35

Hi,

I’m after some suggestions regarding follow ups after a transfer like 1NT - 2 - 2 - 3, and what these follow ups should mean.

I’m assuming that the NT bid is weak, but I suspect that it makes little difference for string NT. Assume that Texas transfers will cover most of the 6 card major suits, so the major is likely to be a 5 card suit.

* Firstly, what should the strength and shape be of the hand be. I’m suggesting that is should be a minimum of a 5-4 shape but usually 5-5 and a hand that has some slam interest (with a weaker hand, don’t bother showing the suit) and just bid 3NT instead).

* what follow up would you recommend to show:
- min hand, no fit for either suit (I’d think 3NT)
- min hand, 3 card fit and no fit for other suit (I’d think 4)
- same but a 4 card fit
- min hand, 3 card fit and a good fit for other suit?
- same but a 4 card fit
- max hand, 3 card fit and no fit for other suit
- same but 4 card fit
- max hand, 3 card fit and good fit for other suit
- same but 4 card fit
- min hand, no fit in major bu good fit in other suit
- same but a max hand
- any other hands I’ve forgotten?

Thanks,

Ian
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#2 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2017-October-02, 15:38

Hi Ian. I think you're trying to cover too many situations (btw, what about a max fitted for none of the suits?) , some of them being "aggregable" and not deserving a different treatment.

With such sequences, it is more a concept of visualizing a good match / good complement (eg fit in one suit, Hx in the other and not too much QJ's outside is better then a double fit with xxx and AK KQJ in the other suits).

First important thing is to define the 3D bid after the transfer acceptance.

I play it as 55 GF (not necessarily slammish, just want to be in the right game, 3NT, 4M or 5m), sometimes 54 with concentrated values. It becomes easier for opener to give the fit and go above 3NT as the minor suit is really promising and can seriously be considered as a potential trump. In that case:
- jump to major game is usually discouraging with wasted values in the other suits and no useful complement
- 3M is a nice fitting hand, open to more

To show less shapely GF hands, I then use a conventional 2NT. It doesn't show a GI balanced hand as usually played, but it is a forcing relay, presumably with a 4-cd side minor but with a hand not ready to be in 5m (eg weaker side of the GF range, or weakish suit), and trying to get to 4M or 3NT if my shortness is well covered. Opener w/o major fit can cue his tenaces. We might end up in 4M in 5-2 fit.

As a consequence, you need to use Stayman with GI hands and 5-cd majors (only issue is if opener bids 2S when you have 5H, and passes your subsequent 2NT bid).

It is a bit of a digression I apologize but I think answers will strongly depend on what people play.
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#3 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2017-October-03, 01:37

I recently spent quite some time trying to develop sequences to show GF two suited hands facing 1NT. One idea was to use a 3C bid to show a hand with a shortage (E.g 5143 distribution) with relays to find the exact distribution. A 3D bid would then show other GF hands. Eventually I concluded that a simple natural method was best. In this, as in the question above, a rebid of a minor would be natural and GF. Following this opener should bid along the following lines;

3NT to deny a major fit and with good stops in the unbidden suits. Responder can raise to 4NT or make some other bid to see if opener is min or max.
3 of the major with most hands with a fit.
4 of the major with four card support but minimum. (Note that maximum hands with four card support might "super accept".)
4 of the minor with good support and (usually) no support for the major.
3 of a new suit to show a strong suit, usually indicating weakness in the fourth suit.
4 of a new suit as a cue bid with support for the minor.

As a general principle you make the cheapest bid first so you can then follow up to describe your hand in more detail. So, for example;
1NT - 2D - 2H - 3C -3S -3NT -4H would show a good spade suit, weak diamonds and heart support.
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#4 User is offline   aawk 

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Posted 2017-October-03, 09:39

First step is to agree what 2s or refusal of the transfer means.

1nt - 2
?

2 = no other bid possible
2nt = maximum 4(5) card 2+ card no cue in (cue in /)
3 = maximum 4(5) card 2+ card no cue in (cue in /)
3 = maximum 4(5) card 2+ card no cue in (cue in /)
3 = maximum 4(5) card (2 side suits without a cue)

a cue being A or K
after a 2 transfer 2nt shows maximum 4(5) card 2+ card no cue in (cue in /)



1nt - 2
2 - 3 (slam invite or better at least 5-4 in /)
?

3 = 3(4+) card 2-3(4) card
3nt = 2 card 3 card or a minimum with 2 card 4 card
4 = 4+ card cue in
4 = 4+ card no cue in
4 = on agreement asking aces (best to use RKC)
4 = 3(+) card s no aces or on agreement a maximum of 2 cues
4nt = asking aces (best to use RKC)

1nt - 2
2nt/3/3 - ?

3 = retransfer no other bid possible or needed
3 = slam forcing with at least Kx(+) in // no other bid needed
3nt = on agreement Q of trump with KQ(+) in //
rest = cue with KQ(+) in //

Pick an choose what you like.
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#5 User is offline   dokoko 

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Posted 2017-October-03, 09:50

We play a Meckwell structure using transfers to second suit after 1NT-2-2 and 1NT-2-2:

2NT= 4+ clubs FG
3= 4+ diamonds FG
3= 4+ other major FG

Opener bids one of responder's suits with fit and values or 3NT otherwise. Responder may show shortness with fit and extra length otherwise.

1NT-2-2-2 asks for min/max and support.
1NT-2-2x-2 shows an invitation with 5 spades.

So you don't need a natural 2NT rebid after a transfer. The 2nd round transfers are used not only with slammish hands, but also with hands looking for the best game; they should not be used if 5 of a minor is out of reach. IMO this is a structure for expert use, but go ahead and try it if you think you can master it.

There are several other structures available on the web. None of these will bid your hands for you, however. You will have to judge when to go past 3NT, which fit to show with a double fit etc. And you will have to remember the structure well; any accident will make it hard to profit on balance.
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#6 User is online   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-October-03, 16:38

View Posthirowla, on 2017-October-02, 09:35, said:

I'm assuming that the NT bid is weak, but I suspect that it makes little difference for string NT. Assume that Texas transfers will cover most of the 6 card major suits, so the major is likely to be a 5 card suit.

Ok will put my 2 cents worth in.
As a card carrying weak NT player why would you assume Texas?
If I was to assume anything it would be no Texas. Texas will often wrong-side hand.
You want to use transfers use 4 and 4 as South African transfers.
Only loss Gerber, if anyone considers Gerber a loss. You get for free an in between bid to use by opener to suggests they like your suit. Meanwhile anything you can do over Texas you can do over South African.

Even Strong NT players should be considering South African. Ask yourself, how often do you need Gerber in a month?

Also, if you are showing a 2-suiter why can't it be 6-5?

Sarcasm is a state of mind
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#7 User is offline   hirowla 

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Posted 2017-October-03, 17:15

View Poststeve2005, on 2017-October-03, 16:38, said:

Ok will put my 2 cents worth in.
As a card carrying weak NT player why would you assume Texas?
If I was to assume anything it would be no Texas. Texas will often wrong-side hand.
You want to use transfers use 4 and 4 as South African transfers.
Only loss Gerber, if anyone considers Gerber a loss. You get for free an in between bid to use by opener to suggests they like your suit. Meanwhile anything you can do over Texas you can do over South African.

Even Strong NT players should be considering South African. Ask yourself, how often do you need Gerber in a month?

Also, if you are showing a 2-suiter why can't it be 6-5?


Im assuming Texas because I play Texas!
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#8 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-October-10, 05:48

View Posthirowla, on 2017-October-02, 09:35, said:

Im after some suggestions regarding follow ups after a transfer like 1NT - 2 - 2 - 3, and what these follow ups should mean.

It depends a lot on how much complexity you want. The basic scheme is this:-

1NT - 2; 2 - 3
--
3 = 4+ diamonds, heart control and decent hand for slam
3 = 3 spades
3NT = 2 spades, 2-3 diamonds
4 = 4+ diamonds, club control and decent hand for slam
4 = 4+ diamonds
--

An interesting idea incorporating the serious/frivolous 3NT concept is something like this:-

1NT - 2; 2 - 3
--
3 = 4+ diamonds, would decline a slam try
3 = 3 spades
3NT = 2 spades, 2-3 diamonds
4 = 4+ diamonds, would accept a slam try, club control
4 = 4+ diamonds, would accept a slam try, spade control
4 = 4+ diamonds, would accept a slam try, heart control
--

To me though, the best approach is to go back a step and use second round transfers, for example:-

1NT - 2; 2 - 3 (diamonds)
--
3 = 4+ diamonds, 2 hearts
3 = 2 spades, 4+ diamonds, would decline a slam try
3 = 3 spades, 2-3 diamonds
3NT = 2 spades, 2-3 diamonds
4 = 3 spades, 4+ diamonds, would accept a slam try, club control
4 = 3 spades, 4+ diamonds, would accept a slam try, spade control
4 = 3 spades, 4+ diamonds, would accept a slam try, heart control
--

or

1NT - 2; 2 - 3 (diamonds)
--
3 = 4+ diamonds, 2 hearts
3 = 2 spades, 2-3 diamonds
3 = 3 spades, 2-3 diamonds
3NT = 2 spades, 4+ diamonds, would decline a slam try
4 = 3 spades, 4+ diamonds, would accept a slam try, club control
4 = 3 spades, 4+ diamonds, would accept a slam try, spade control
4 = 3 spades, 4+ diamonds, would accept a slam try, heart control
--

Unfortunately it is not always simple to make second round transfers work over the 2 response. It is much easier when the initial transfer is 2.

Finally,

View Poststeve2005, on 2017-October-03, 16:38, said:

You want to use transfers use 4 and 4 as South African transfers.
Only loss Gerber, if anyone considers Gerber a loss. You get for free an in between bid to use by opener to suggests they like your suit. Meanwhile anything you can do over Texas you can do over South African.

Even Strong NT players should be considering South African. Ask yourself, how often do you need Gerber in a month?

There are other ways of using 4 effectively with Texas besides Gerber. Quite popular in some circles and rather effective in combination with a weak NT is for 4 to be "pick a major". This could be a weak preemptive hand, a hand wanting to play and make 4M or even a hand with slam interest. If you have the means to resolve your slammy 1-suited major hands at the 3 level (or perhaps use Baze and resolve them at 4m) then this makes much more sense than SA Texas. I realise that some pairs, even some extremely strong experts, like SA Texas but for me the method is generally less efficient than most well-designed alternatives. YMMV.
(-: Zel :-)
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