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7-5 hand Shape vs strength

#1 User is offline   cbt776 

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Posted 2017-September-29, 14:59

Red vs White you hold:
KT9xx

KT8xxxx
K

And after dealer passes it's your call. I'm curious what people would choose playing 2/1 with a weak NT and a good partner.
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#2 User is offline   dokoko 

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Posted 2017-September-29, 15:36

Pass.

As we are favourites to own the hand (I have a better hand than RHO), I try to avoid misleading partner.
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#3 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-September-29, 15:52

Welcome to the forum cbt776 :)

Distribution always outweighs high card points. Any shape of 6-5 or above has enormous playing strength, except on the odd occasion where there's a misfit. For me it's a 1 opener every time, even with a singleton K and the lacklustre suits.

(Kaplan & Rubens hand evaluator calculated after writing the above is 14.2)
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#4 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2017-September-30, 14:49

If I had short spades I would fell compelled to open for fear of the opponents bidding an inconvenient number of them.

Here I can pass and push a LOT and know much more about the overall lay of the hand than I could ever know after opening.
The race may not go to the swift nor the battle to the strong. But that's the way to bet it.
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#5 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-September-30, 15:02

View Postggwhiz, on 2017-September-30, 14:49, said:

If I had short spades I would fell compelled to open for fear of the opponents bidding an inconvenient number of them.

Here I can pass and push a LOT and know much more about the overall lay of the hand than I could ever know after opening.


Opponents opening 1 and raising to 4 is pretty inconvenient too. I'm not against 'Pass' but when you have an easy rebid I find personally it's better to open such hands. I'd rather take my chance of finding a fit now than later.
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#6 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2017-October-01, 18:36

red vs white one does not usually worry too much about finding a pin point accuracy SAC. That means we are primarily trying to figure out how to best get to something that makes for our side. That (to me anyway) means that opening this aceless wonder
seems to get us off on the wrong foot. Having an easy 4s rebid is really not a factor at these colors and the lack of defense is almost always going to lead partner astray in any competitive situation. If the vulnerability were reversed -------maybe
but I am a big chicken and I would still pass.
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#7 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-October-01, 19:00

View Postgszes, on 2017-October-01, 18:36, said:

red vs white one does not usually worry too much about finding a pin point accuracy SAC. That means we are primarily trying to figure out how to best get to something that makes for our side. That (to me anyway) means that opening this aceless wonder
seems to get us off on the wrong foot. Having an easy 4s rebid is really not a factor at these colors and the lack of defense is almost always going to lead partner astray in any competitive situation. If the vulnerability were reversed -------maybe
but I am a big chicken and I would still pass.


Trying to predict an auction before it happens is a recipe for disaster at the bridge table, I feel. Even if the bidding goes let's say:-

(P) - 1 - (1) - 1 - (4) you are not obliged to bid 4

and if it goes (P) - 1 - (P) - 1 - (P) - 1 - (P) - 2 FSF GF, there are plenty of other minimum hands with aces that will land you in trouble.

and if it goes (P) - P - (1) - 2 - (4) you just make things more difficult for yourself, in my opinion.
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#8 User is online   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-October-02, 01:44

I am not bidding.

I agree that this hand has a lot of playing potential if partner has a fit for one of my suits. But partner often seems to have a mis-fitting 14 count and keeps bidding - expecting you to have an opening bid.
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#9 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-October-02, 03:46

View PostTramticket, on 2017-October-02, 01:44, said:

I am not bidding.

I agree that this hand has a lot of playing potential if partner has a fit for one of my suits. But partner often seems to have a mis-fitting 14 count and keeps bidding - expecting you to have an opening bid.


Question: on a typical bridge session, or sessions, how many times do you end up in a contract on a total misfit? If partner is used to you opening light, and the opponents get competitive, good partnerships know when to take the foot off the accelerator pedal.

The answer is that it is quite rare to end up in a misfit. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is, I believe, about a 20% chance partner will have 2 (making a 9 card fit), and about a 50% chance he will have either 3 or 4 s (an 8 or 9 card fit).

Yes, I accept the play of the hand may be difficult to handle with such distribution and lack of aces, but there will be plenty of hands where partner can't bid and 4 is virtually laydown
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#10 User is online   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-October-02, 03:52

Some of this is style of course, but in second seat in particular, I think that this hand is stretching things too far for me.
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#11 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-October-02, 04:05

View PostThe_Badger, on 2017-September-30, 15:02, said:

Opponents opening 1 and raising to 4 is pretty inconvenient too. I'm not against 'Pass' but when you have an easy rebid I find personally it's better to open such hands. I'd rather take my chance of finding a fit now than later.

What do you think P-1-P-4-4 means ? isn't it basically this hand, the only problem is that partner doesn't know which minor you have
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#12 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-October-02, 08:41

View Postcbt776, on 2017-September-29, 14:59, said:

Red vs White you hold: K T 9 x x - KT 8 x x x x K
And after dealer passes it's your call. I'm curious what people would choose playing 2/1 with a weak NT and a good partner.

I rank
  • 2 = NAT. Weak 2. Intending to rebid . (Playing Lucas, you might open 2).
  • 1 = NAT. Intending to rebid . Gross overbid, so apologise if it goes pear-shaped.
  • 1 = NAT. Slightly less aggressive. But misrepresents the shape.
  • Pass = NAT. Common sense. Since any other call is a distortion.

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#13 User is offline   cbt776 

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Posted 2017-October-02, 08:55

I appreciate all the feedback. For some closure: My partner and opponents were surprised to see me table that hand as dummy in 4 (partner bid 2 over 3rd seat's 2 preempt!) having opened 1. As a few of you suggested my analysis was heavily weighted by the possibility of making game opposite even certain dead minimum responder hands and the impossibility of showing my hand fully if I passed. I was very curious to get a larger sample on how the action would be perceived.
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#14 User is online   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-October-02, 09:55

I posted as a bidding problem on Bridge Winners.

But I can't seem to attach the link.
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#15 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2017-October-02, 16:42

Here's a link http://bridgewinners...m-2-ja4gccyd5r/

I passed there and I'll pass here. Great distribution but only 3 kings and one of them stiff. Hopefully I can get in later.
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#16 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2017-October-02, 17:29

View PostThe_Badger, on 2017-October-02, 03:46, said:

Question: on a typical bridge session, or sessions, how many times do you end up in a contract on a total misfit? If partner is used to you opening light, and the opponents get competitive, good partnerships know when to take the foot off the accelerator pedal.


The issue isn't how often it happens but how often it (or other downsides from opening this) occur compared to the gains. Sometimes you won't be able to come back into the auction on this (although I bet a lot of us would overcall 4 if necessary), but usually if they've got a fit, you'll get a chance. Especially when you're second in. Passed hands that have a 4 response to 1 are pretty rare, since third seat might be a light opening.
The "4 is a transfer to 4" award goes to Jinksy - PhilKing
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#17 User is offline   mr1303 

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Posted 2017-October-02, 18:26

If I pass first, I limit my hand, and if I bid aggressively later partner should know I have something like this. If I open 1D, partner won't have any idea what I have, and might misjudge.

FWIW, IFF I have to open, I only consider 1D. 2D or 1S are abominations IMO.
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#18 User is offline   dokoko 

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Posted 2017-October-03, 00:30

View PostJinksy, on 2017-October-02, 17:29, said:

Especially when you're second in.


That's exactly my point. I would probably open in first and surely in third seat.
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#19 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-October-03, 01:18

View Postdokoko, on 2017-October-03, 00:30, said:

That's exactly my point. I would probably open in first and surely in third seat.


I understand that, but how exactly do you bid this hand as a passed hand? It could be awkward. Especially as your s are two cards longer than your s.

Partner would have difficulty gauging the playing strength that you have, and as you are a passed hand he has every right to drop the bidding quickly.

I'd rather take my chance with opening at the one level as it is. Change one of those small to the J or even Q and the hand is not much better structurally but is it still a passing hand?
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#20 User is offline   JanisW 

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Posted 2017-October-03, 10:17

The problem with this hand has nothing to do with the 13 cards I am looking at. It comes from the 13 cards my partner is holding.
If he is 4-4-3-2 with Honours in the pointed suits and xxxx in Hearts my initial pass will be an underbid and it will be tough to catch up.
If he is 2-4-2-5 with most of his strength in the pointed suits (xx, KJxx, xx, AQJxx) my 1-opening will be an overbid and there will be a thread: "ATB for 4X=" ...

Since I do have almost no defence and cannot bid 3 because of the 5card Major, I will have to pass for now. If anything but 4 comes back to me, I will be able to catch up and maybe even then, because a 4-bid has to be at least a 5-6 hand, that couldn't open weak2 and has lots of playing strength.

Edit: I understand that it will be tough to bid this as a passed hand, but I think it would be even more difficult to stop partner from bidding on or doubling the opponents. If any of my K were an A, it would be an easy 1.

regards
JW
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