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Suit Combination: What's the correct play for one loser? What's the correct play for one loser?

#1 User is offline   Dinarius 

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Posted 2017-September-27, 04:24

9, 8, 2,

A, K, J, 4,

Probably not even an expert question, but I figured I may as well ask the experts.

What is the correct play for one loser.

For what it's worth, if the finesse (hook) is correct, you do have entries to first cash a top honor (to cater for singleton Q with West) and then crossover to take the finesse, if Q doesn't fall.

But, missing Q, 10, and holding J, 9, 8, I'm guessing that cashing Ace/King is the correct line for one loser.

Thanks.

D.
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#2 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2017-September-27, 04:54

Cashing ace king loses to QTxx and QTxxx onside. It wins against xxx onside (QTx off). Otherwise cashing and double finesse after cashing one round pick up the same holdings.

Seems like double finesse is better?
Adam W. Meyerson
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#3 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-September-27, 05:35

View Postawm, on 2017-September-27, 04:54, said:

Cashing ace king loses to QTxx and QTxxx onside. It wins against xxx onside (QTx off). Otherwise cashing and double finesse after cashing one round pick up the same holdings.

Seems like double finesse is better?


Large helping of wrong here, you make 3 tricks either way, clue, you cover at every opportunity, and can cash AK then lead up.

AK then lead up never loses with the OP condition of for one loser
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#4 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2017-September-27, 06:40

yes cash ak and lead towards jack. you drop anything that's droppable and still make when queen is onside. you only lose to qtxx+ offside which can't be picked up either way.
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#5 User is offline   Dinarius 

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Posted 2017-September-27, 07:47

View Postwank, on 2017-September-27, 06:40, said:

yes cash ak and lead towards jack. you drop anything that's droppable and still make when queen is onside. you only lose to qtxx+ offside which can't be picked up either way.


What I thought it might be.

Thanks.

D.
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#6 User is offline   JanisW 

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Posted 2017-September-27, 11:40

I want to go one a little

Assume MP-scoring and let's suppose you feel like you're needing a swing and are pretty sure everyone else is in 6NT on a combined 33HCP and you have 9 Tricks outside with basically no chance on a tenth trick



What is the proper play for making 13 tricks, even at the risk of going down?

I guess there are two parts to this question.

I) How many and which winners do you cash, before attacking hearts (you might need entries to the N hand)
II) How to Finesse
a) simple Finesse? or A first and finesse?
b) letting the 9 ride (needed against QTxx in E)

regards
JW
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#7 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2017-September-27, 12:54

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-September-27, 05:35, said:

Large helping of wrong here, you make 3 tricks either way, clue, you cover at every opportunity, and can cash AK then lead up.

AK then lead up never loses with the OP condition of for one loser


Heh, got me on this one. That's what I get for posting in the middle of the work day. :)
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#8 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2017-September-28, 08:19

View PostJanisW, on 2017-September-27, 11:40, said:

I want to go one a little

Assume MP-scoring and let's suppose you feel like you're needing a swing and are pretty sure everyone else is in 6NT on a combined 33HCP and you have 9 Tricks outside with basically no chance on a tenth trick



What is the proper play for making 13 tricks, even at the risk of going down?

I guess there are two parts to this question.

I) How many and which winners do you cash, before attacking hearts (you might need entries to the N hand)
II) How to Finesse
a) simple Finesse? or A first and finesse?
b) letting the 9 ride (needed against QTxx in E)

regards
JW

I think you take the heart finesse early, then cash the top hearts. You need the finesse to succeed to stand any chance. Assuming a 4-2 split you cash the other suits to try for a squeeze. You can afford to cash one top heart before the finesse but need to delay cashing other top cards in order to retain entries for the various squeeze options.
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#9 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-September-28, 11:27

View PostJanisW, on 2017-September-27, 11:40, said:

I want to go one a little
Assume MP-scoring and let's suppose you feel like you're needing a swing and are pretty sure everyone else is in 6NT on a combined 33HCP and you have 9 Tricks outside with basically no chance on a tenth trick
What is the proper play for making 13 tricks, even at the risk of going down?
I guess there are two parts to this question.
I) How many and which winners do you cash, before attacking hearts (you might need entries to the N hand)
II) How to Finesse
a) simple Finesse? or A first and finesse?
b) letting the 9 ride (needed against QTxx in E)
A opening lead would make your task harder but suppose that you win a kind lead with K, cash A, cross to K, finesse J (presumably successful) and cash K.
If s are good, then claim.
Otherwise, cash AQ, discarding a , to find out who guards s.
You hope that a different defender guards s from the one who guards s.
Now cash your s. In the 4-card ending, when you cash your last .
RHO must keep his major winner, so discard that suit from hand.
LHO must also keep his major winner, so your s are good.

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#10 User is offline   dokoko 

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Posted 2017-September-29, 16:34

View PostJanisW, on 2017-September-27, 11:40, said:

I want to go one a little

Assume MP-scoring and let's suppose you feel like you're needing a swing and are pretty sure everyone else is in 6NT on a combined 33HCP and you have 9 Tricks outside with basically no chance on a tenth trick



What is the proper play for making 13 tricks, even at the risk of going down?

I guess there are two parts to this question.

I) How many and which winners do you cash, before attacking hearts (you might need entries to the N hand)
II) How to Finesse
a) simple Finesse? or A first and finesse?
b) letting the 9 ride (needed against QTxx in E)

regards
JW

If you want to reduce the hand to the heart suit, trade the 3 for the 5. If South has only three spades, the best line is to cash the ace, then run the 9.

View Postnige1, on 2017-September-28, 11:27, said:

A opening lead would make your task harder but suppose that you win a kind lead with K, cash A, cross to K, finesse J (presumably successful) and cash K.
If s are good, then claim.
Otherwise, cash AQ, discarding a , to find out who guards s.
You hope that a different defender guards s from the one who guards s.
Now cash your s. In the 4-card ending, when you cash your last .
RHO must keep his major winner, so discard that suit from hand.
LHO must also keep his major winner, so your s are good.



1. After finessing J successfully you should cash South's black suit winners, if Q hasn't appeared. In that case either hearts are 3-3 or RHO guards them. If you find out that he also guards the spades, you can squeeze him in the majors: Cash all your minor suit winners ending in dummy; on the last one discard your spade if not good.
2. If everyone followed in spades you have to guess who has the length. If noone showed out on the clubs, odds favor split guards.
3. If LHO guards the hearts, there is no squeeze in the majors against him, so the double squeeze in the only line.
4. Should a defender have 5 or more diamonds together with 4 or more hearts he will be squeezed on either line.
Note: With five spades and Q10xx East should play Q to the second round; otherwise cashing the spade winners makes the winning line obvious. Declarer should then cash a third round of hearts finding out that Q was a false card. If he puts East on the hand he has, he might execute a major suit squeeze by keeping the spades and cashing the minor suit winners, discarding the heart if not good on the last one.

On a diamond lead you have to win in hand and play for successful finesse. If this works, you have a choice of squeezes:
- a - squeeze: cash K, then black suit winners ending in hand (discard a spade on the last club). Any defender holding 5+ diamonds and 4+ hearts will be squeezed.
- a - squeeze: cash K, then black suit winners ending in hand (discard a heart on the last club). Any defender holding 5+ diamonds and 4+ spades will be squeezed.
- a - squeeze: cash K, then minor suit winners ending in dummy (discard a heart if not good on the last one). RHO holding 4+ hearts and 4+ spades will be squeezed.
If LHO shows out on the third heart the last one seems best otherwise you have to choose from the other two (placing RHO with the spades and trying to squeeze the opponent with the shorter clubs).
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#11 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-October-01, 17:44

View Postdokoko, on 2017-September-29, 16:34, said:

1. After finessing J successfully you should cash South's black suit winners, if Q hasn't appeared. In that case either hearts are 3-3 or RHO guards them. If you find out that he also guards the spades, you can squeeze him in the majors: Cash all your minor suit winners ending in dummy; on the last one discard your spade if not good.
2. If everyone followed in spades you have to guess who has the length. If noone showed out on the clubs, odds favor split guards.
3. If LHO guards the hearts, there is no squeeze in the majors against him, so the double squeeze in the only line.
4. Should a defender have 5 or more diamonds together with 4 or more hearts he will be squeezed on either line.
Note: With five spades and Q10xx East should play Q to the second round; otherwise cashing the spade winners makes the winning line obvious. Declarer should then cash a third round of hearts finding out that Q was a false card. If he puts East on the hand he has, he might execute a major suit squeeze by keeping the spades and cashing the minor suit winners, discarding the heart if not good on the last one.

On a diamond lead you have to win in hand and play for successful finesse. If this works, you have a choice of squeezes:
- a - squeeze: cash K, then black suit winners ending in hand (discard a spade on the last club). Any defender holding 5+ diamonds and 4+ hearts will be squeezed.
- a - squeeze: cash K, then black suit winners ending in hand (discard a heart on the last club). Any defender holding 5+ diamonds and 4+ spades will be squeezed.
- a - squeeze: cash K, then minor suit winners ending in dummy (discard a heart if not good on the last one). RHO holding 4+ hearts and 4+ spades will be squeezed.
If LHO shows out on the third heart the last one seems best otherwise you have to choose from the other two (placing RHO with the spades and trying to squeeze the opponent with the shorter clubs).

On a lead,
you succeed with a non-simultaneous double-squeeze provided each defender guards a major. Win A, cash A, cross to K, successfully finesse J.
If LHO has 4, then cash K, and your s. To keep his s, RHO must abandon his guard. So discard your and cash AQ to squeeze LHO in the red suits.

After successfully finessing J, if RHO has 4s, then there is a similar non-simultaneous double-squeeze, provided LHO guards s. Cash AQ, as dokoko suggests. Than cash s. RHO must keep his guard. so you discard a from hand. Now cash K to squeeze LHO in the pointy suits. Unfortunately, if are 3-3, then this line might fail.


if LHO shows out on AQ, then cash your minor winners to squeeze RHO in the majors.

If LHO guards both majors, nothing works.

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#12 User is offline   dokoko 

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Posted 2017-October-02, 08:30

View Postnige1, on 2017-October-01, 17:44, said:


On a lead,
you succeed with a non-simultaneous double-squeeze provided each defender guards a major. Win A, cash A, cross to K, successfully finesse J.
If LHO has 4, then cash K, and your s. To keep his s, RHO must abandon his guard. So discard your and cash AQ to squeeze RHO in the red suits.

After successfully finessing J, if RHO has 4s, then there is a similar non-simultaneous double-squeeze, provided LHO guards s. Cash AQ, as dokoko suggests. Than cash s. RHO must keep his guard. so you discard a from hand. Now cash K to squeeze LHO in the pointy suits. Unfortunately, if are 3-3, then this line might fail.


if LHO shows out on AQ, then cash your minor winners to squeeze RHO in the majors.

If LHO guards both majors, nothing works.



This is better than my line when West guards the hearts (double squeeze improves on - squeeze).

But when both opps follow twice in hearts without Q falling, you should play for West to have the missing x rather than East have it and West 4 or more spades. If West shows out on the third heart you have to fall back on the major suit squeeze.
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#13 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-October-02, 18:29

View Postdokoko, on 2017-September-29, 16:34, said:

If you want to reduce the hand to the heart suit, trade the 3 for the 5. If South has only three spades, the best line is to cash the ace, then run the 9.

IMO, with AKJ4 opposite 982, considering this suit in isolation, your best hope for 4 tricks is
Cash a top .
If an honour drops offside, then run 9 next.
Otherwise finesse J
Making 4 tricks when Qxx or QT or Qxxxx or Txxxx are onside.
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#14 User is offline   dokoko 

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Posted 2017-October-03, 01:17

View Postnige1, on 2017-October-02, 18:29, said:

IMO, with AKJ4 opposite 982, considering this suit in isolation, your best hope for 4 tricks is
Cash a top .
If an honour drops offside, then run 9 next.
Otherwise finesse J
You make 4 tricks when Qxx or QT or Qxxxx or Txxxx are onside.


I lose to Txx with East, you lose to xx and x with East which is a bit more likely.
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#15 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-October-04, 11:16

View Postdokoko, on 2017-September-29, 16:34, said:

If you want to reduce the hand to the heart suit, trade the 3 for the 5. If South has only three spades, the best line is to cash the ace, then run the 9.

View Postnige1, on 2017-October-02, 18:29, said:

IMO, with AKJ4 opposite 982, considering this suit in isolation, your best hope for 4 tricks is: Cash a top . If an honour drops offside, then run 9 next. Otherwise finesse J. Making 4 tricks when Qxx or QT or Qxxxx or Txxxx are onside.

View Postdokoko, on 2017-October-03, 01:17, said:

I lose to Txx with East, you lose to xx and x with East which is a bit more likely.

Dokoko suggests that declarer can make 13 tricks when LHO holds x(x)
(A layout like that on the left). :)
Unfortunately, Gib confirms that RHO keeps declarer to 12 tricks,
by covering both 9 and 8 :(
If you strengthen LHO's holding -- to 65, say --
then, declarer can succeed by leading 9, without first cashing a top .
Later, declarer can finesse 4
(at double-dummy)
.

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