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Your bid

#21 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2017-September-24, 03:43

A lot depends on your bidding agreements and approach.

As someone asked, how light do you overcall VUL? If you would overcall something like KQ10xx xx Axxx xx or less, then you need some way to limit your hand after the cue. Typically, that's with a minimum rebid in your overcall suit, here 2 .

Do you have a way to show a limit raise after an overcall? If you play all direct raises are weak (5-8), so that a 2 raise show 3 , 3 shows 4 , and 4 shows 5+ , then you need a way to show a limit raise. Lacking any other specific bid to do so, a cue would need to be used to show the limit raise.

As for partner being a passed hand, partner could still have a hand that was just under opening values, a hand that improved with the overcall, or, both. Opposite Hrothgar's original hand, what would you do with something like QJxx x AQxx xxxx? And over any 2 "minimal overcall" rebid are you going to raise to 3 with this hand?

So, for me, 2 would not be an option because the overcall is about an opening bid (13 HCP, 2 QTs, 7 losers). With partner being a passed hand, there probably isn't enough HC strength for a NT game to be right so 2 NT would not seem to be right. I'd probably opt for the "1 card off" bid of 2 . It keeps the bidding low, let's partner know I've got an opener, and is only 1 card off from K10xxx Kx KJxx Kx which would be a proper 2 rebid.
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#22 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2017-September-24, 03:52

View Postwank, on 2017-September-24, 02:38, said:

2d a la drury. you're too good to just sign off but too bad to bid game and you'd rather not risk the 3 level if you just end up playing part-score.

for this reason i play 2C as a good raise irrespective of which suit they opened. 2 of their suit replaces a natural 2C. like 3rd in hand openers, overcalls have a very wide range, hence the need to narrow it with drury.

What passed hand can you imagine that would start with 2C only and where game is good?
Obviously we have a recall bias in favour of the assholes. -helene_t
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#23 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-September-24, 04:28

View Postrmnka447, on 2017-September-24, 03:43, said:


As for partner being a passed hand, partner could still have a hand that was just under opening values, a hand that improved with the overcall, or, both. Opposite Hrothgar's original hand, what would you do with something like QJxx x AQxx xxxx? And over any 2 "minimal overcall" rebid are you going to raise to 3 with this hand?



I have 2 other bids I'd make before 2 on that hand, and our overcalls tend to be sound enough I would raise 2 to 3 if by some chance I had bid 2.
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#24 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2017-September-24, 04:48

Hi,

2S.

I am certainly not min, but p is a passed hand,
i.e. he can stretch to make the 2C bid.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#25 User is offline   mr1303 

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Posted 2017-September-24, 06:31

I can live with 2D here - a vaguely positive noise. I won't do anything more encouraging though.
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#26 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-September-24, 08:28

View Postjohnu, on 2017-September-23, 23:58, said:

Random question. Did everybody notice that the cue bidder is a passed hand?


I did not. :(

However, it's not clear to me that 2N still isn't the best bid as this hand is toward the top end of an overcall - AND our style is not to open all flat 12 point hands while raises of overcalls are about a king heavier than after opening bids. I don't consider the 2NT bid as an attempt to play 3NT but simply a descriptive bid that shows my approximate high-card strength and hand shape.

That being said, the hand shown as a 2C bid is not good enough - even as a passed hand - IMO. I'm not so sure it's worth much more than 2S because of the dubious value of the Qx in clubs. I would have to ask if someone would cue bid holding: Qxxx, xx, AQxxx, xx? I think that is a bit much.

I think the question for non-random partners might be what to do after 1C-1S-P-2S-P or if it shouldn't go 1C-1S-P-3S?

However, with Richard's problem with a random partner, I still describe my hand to the best of my ability: 2NT. That's doesn't commit us to game - IMO. I don't even consider it a forcing bid. It is now up to partner to place the contract in knowledge that he is facing a solid weak NT with 5 spades.

But that is just my opinion - your mileage may vary.
If something cannot go on forever, it will stop. - Herb Stein
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#27 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2017-September-24, 08:35

For those interested in results merchanting, here's the actual hand




I chose a simple 2 rebid figuring that there wasn't much hope of game opposite a passed hand and if there was a good play for game partner might make another move.

The double fit in Hearts and Spades meant that there were 10 tricks to be had.

Score 10 for the evil opposition (our biggest loss of the match)
Alderaan delenda est
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#28 User is offline   diana_eva 

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Posted 2017-September-24, 08:52

View Posthrothgar, on 2017-September-24, 08:35, said:

For those interested in results merchanting, here's the actual hand

http://www.bridgebas...CQ%7Cpc%7CS7%7C

I chose a simple 2 rebid figuring that there wasn't much hope of game opposite a passed hand and if there was a good play for game partner might make another move.

The double fit in Hearts and Spades meant that there were 10 tricks to be had.

Score 10 for the evil opposition (our biggest loss of the match)


The opps were behind at that point during the match. I'm pretty sure they pushed to this vul game to recover. Versace would declare it, opps were not top notch, he had a decent shot to pull it off even if game weren't cold.

#29 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2017-September-24, 15:55

View Postcherdano, on 2017-September-24, 03:52, said:

What passed hand can you imagine that would start with 2C only and where game is good?


qjx
qjxx
axx
xxx

would be ideal without the need for any useful doubletons and without assuming partner passes 11s (i open quite soundly). it's pretty unlikely p will have enough to move again - he can't have points unless he's passed an openable hand so he'd need a ruffing value. in all likelihood we'll play 2s.
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#30 User is offline   lycier 

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Posted 2017-September-25, 02:54

I will start with 2 to look for more side suits fitting.
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#31 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-September-25, 02:59

View Postwank, on 2017-September-24, 15:55, said:

qjx
qjxx
axx
xxx

would be ideal without the need for any useful doubletons and without assuming partner passes 11s (i open quite soundly). it's pretty unlikely p will have enough to move again - he can't have points unless he's passed an openable hand so he'd need a ruffing value. in all likelihood we'll play 2s.


That hand doesn't always make game by any means eg W has Axx, xx, xx, AQJxxx/xxx, Ax, xx, AQJxxx and you get defeated by the heart ruff or Ax, Ax, xxx, AQJxxx where W wins the club lead and plays a diamond (ignoring cases where the overcaller has 7 clubs or doesn't have the A where you're completely doomed). And that's with partner having the perfect hand, switch any of the major suit quacks for minor suit ones and see how well it goes.
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#32 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-September-25, 03:36

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-September-25, 02:59, said:

That hand doesn't always make game by any means eg W has Axx, xx, xx, AQJxxx/xxx, Ax, xx, AQJxxx and you get defeated by the heart ruff or Ax, Ax, xxx, AQJxxx where W wins the club lead and plays a diamond (ignoring cases where the overcaller has 7 clubs or doesn't have the A where you're completely doomed). And that's with partner having the perfect hand, switch any of the major suit quacks for minor suit ones and see how well it goes.


But Wank delibately chose a pretty disgusting 10 count to illustrate his point. There are many hands where you would pass as declare but would give reasonable prospects of game.
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#33 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2017-September-25, 05:54

I hate to chat much about hands I was involved in but (hey we won thanks mostly to my teammates Hrothgar Pwqn and Diana_eva --- I did not see ANYONE commenting on the fact that after p 1c 1s p 2c p the overcaller is BEHIND the opening bidder. This tactical advantage (coupled with the inherent weakness of the east hand due to the bidding), means either partner or west is a huge favorite to hold the missing aces. Those kings suddenly look like they are almost as valuable as aces. Once this upgrade is taken into consideration it looks to me like game should be bid but at the very least some sort of game try should happen. If advancer is bidding 2c with say Qxx Qxx Axxx Qxx ask them if maybe a 2s might have been a better choice (and note that opposite that pile game still has some play).

I agree with everyone that, in a vacuum, this does not look like a hand that wishes to pursue game opposite a passed hand. So if the bidding had gone p p 1s p 2c (rev drury) a 2s bid is a very reasonable bid. The opening bid by west changes the dynamic of the hand (imho) and i feel this is a game that should be reached. If N does show some life (2d for ex) south will now bid 2h and that should end any further ideas of passing below game.
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#34 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-September-25, 06:25

View PostTramticket, on 2017-September-25, 03:36, said:

But Wank delibately chose a pretty disgusting 10 count to illustrate his point. There are many hands where you would pass as declare but would give reasonable prospects of game.


There may be many hands YOU would pass, far less that I would :)

On the actual hand I would bid 2 rather than 2 because if game is on, it's most likely because of an at least partial double fit and yes this is pretty much forcing for us even by a passed hand due to various peculiarities of our system.
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#35 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-September-25, 06:55

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-September-25, 06:25, said:

There may be many hands YOU would pass, far less that I would :)

On the actual hand I would bid 2 rather than 2 because if game is on, it's most likely because of an at least partial double fit and yes this is pretty much forcing for us even by a passed hand due to various peculiarities of our system.


Agreed I might be a conservative opener (by today's standards). :)

On the actual hand I would also do something different since we play transfer responses to an overcall. I would bid 2 and then bid 2 over a 2 response. I can't bid 2 as this would be a transfer showing a diamond suit. My alternative would be to bid 2 over partner's 1, which would be our equivalent of a UCB. But this choice would be less helpful. :)
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#36 User is offline   Jinksy 

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Posted 2017-October-02, 17:41

I like 2 as responder whether or not it was forcing - P is unlikely to pass it with fewer than 2 hearts, and he might only have 4 spades, so it might lead to as good or better a part score, as well as diagnosing a possible double fit for game (though I'd prob pass it as N).
The "4 is a transfer to 4" award goes to Jinksy - PhilKing
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#37 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-October-05, 04:15

View PostCyberyeti, on 2017-September-25, 06:25, said:

There may be many hands YOU would pass, far less that I would :)

This goes back to the previous discussion. We do not even know if our partner plays UCBs or not. Why would you assume that they play light openings? It strikes me as much more likely that they open soundly. You also asked for an example where we might want to be in NT rathet than spades - QJ Jxxx Axxx QJx would seem to qualify there. Game is hardly cold but 3NT seems like a decent bet with the strength on our right. And naturally partner could be better.

Now I know that you or I would not advance 2 on that but some would and that is the point. Competitive bidding is an area that is much less well defined than constructive auctions. Marc Smith ran a great series on the subject a few years back pointing out how agreements on range tie together and have knock-on effects but without one approach being truly superior to the next. That is the problem here. We do not know partner's tendencies so we have to guess. With more information we could discuss more clearly about what is best but when we cannot even say what partner's bid means or what a minimum opening looks like or even what range they will expect from us, how can we truly decide if we have enough extra to go beyond 2?

For your style - sound overcalls and light openings - the answer is very clear here. For a partner that plays sound openings and light overcalls the answer is likely to be quite different.
(-: Zel :-)
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#38 User is offline   yunling 

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Posted 2017-October-05, 08:31

View PostZelandakh, on 2017-October-05, 04:15, said:

This goes back to the previous discussion. We do not even know if our partner plays UCBs or not. QJ Jxxx Axxx QJx would seem to qualify there.

Those who play UCB usually start their non-fit cue at 13/14 count or so. I guess few will still play it holding a passed hand.
Even for very conservative overcallers, 1NT may well be the limit for this hand so I wonder if we need to put so much energy into this possibility.

For the OP hand, I'll bid 2.Partner can be a somewhat freaky 10 count and is able to make a second try so no need to hurry. At least it will do little harm. (though I'll still be playing in 2 opposite myself)
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#39 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2017-October-05, 13:48

Zel, do you know anyone who does not play this cuebid as promising a fit by a passed hand? If so, please send them my sympathies!
Obviously we have a recall bias in favour of the assholes. -helene_t
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