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Anyone know the name of this escape system for weak 1N

#1 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-September-22, 03:35

Do you know the name of below escape of 1N?The person who showed it to me is from Calgary Canada.
redouble = 12+ pts our hand
pass= to pay in 1NX, opener can bid with 5 card suit

2C = escape without 5 card suit, bid suits up line till 4-3 fit found
2D/2H/2S= 5 card suit to play
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#2 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-September-22, 04:14

There are many 'wriggles' from weak 1NT. I'm unsure what this one is called though. And I know a few. As for responder redoubling with a 12+ count, that isn't going to happen that often just on the law of averages. I'd rather have a mechanism where responder's pass is then automatically redoubled by the opener, similar to Helvic. Responder redoubling can then be used as another escape bid.
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#3 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-September-22, 09:28

View PostThe_Badger, on 2017-September-22, 04:14, said:

There are many 'wriggles' from weak 1NT. I'm unsure what this one is called though. And I know a few. As for responder redoubling with a 12+ count, that isn't going to happen that often just on the law of averages. I'd rather have a mechanism where responder's pass is then automatically redoubled by the opener, similar to Helvic. Responder redoubling can then be used as another escape bid.

Yes rare. Some nimrod at Toronto NABC overcalled 1N with 7 pts lacking AKJT of his "suit". He said he didn't think we played penalty doubles so was safe. Unfortunately my partner had a bust. But if we give her overcaller's hand he only gets 2 tricks.


I can adjust redouble to a lower hcp level.
I'm interested in it, as you don't always have to be in 1NXX if it makes. At MP 1NX is almost always a top and isn't always a bottom if down. 1NXX is almost always a bottom if down. I'm hoping if I can get the name I can get complete sequences. I don't think I have everything correct.



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#4 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2017-September-22, 12:05

Hi,

have a look
http://blakjak.org/dbl_1nt0.htm

Was not able to find it having a short look only.

with kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#5 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2017-September-22, 18:25

Well, I don't remember talking to you, or the last time we had this auction, but I'm from Calgary, and I play mostly that defence...and I think I brought it here from Ontario.

XX "to play, expect to make it" 12 seems high for a minimum to me; that expects to make 3NT.
X "to play, -100 into partscore is fine, -300 into game as well, it's hard to defend 1NTx with no information", opener can XX with a good 5-card suit
2x (not C) "to play" -5+ card suit expected
2c - to play *unless doubled*; if doubled, scramble to 4-3 fit or undoubled.

We call it "2C scramble"...

Two advantages over p-forces-xx; first is play 1ntx as above; second is they don't get two shots at deciding what to do.

Also, it's fun watching those who don't play double sets a force at all try to figure out what to do against 2c.
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#6 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2017-September-22, 18:55

There are downsides as well, of course; we don't get to the best contract as easily as those who get to show all one-and two-suiters; frequently we're -300 in 2c vs -100 in 2Hx (but against 3nt= around the room, not too bad); we're already behind by preempting our fit-finding even before the double.

But it works; it continues the attacking style of the weak NT (get in and get out).
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#7 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-September-23, 03:01

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2017-September-22, 12:05, said:

http://blakjak.org/dbl_1nt0.htm

Was not able to find it having a short look only.

The second escape system listed on David's page is called 2 Scramble. It gives 2 as a "balanced hand" rather than "clubs or balanced" but it is surely meant to be the same method.
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#8 User is offline   jallerton 

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Posted 2017-October-04, 13:55

View Postmycroft, on 2017-September-22, 18:25, said:

Well, I don't remember talking to you, or the last time we had this auction, but I'm from Calgary, and I play mostly that defence...and I think I brought it here from Ontario.

XX "to play, expect to make it" 12 seems high for a minimum to me; that expects to make 3NT.
X "to play, -100 into partscore is fine, -300 into game as well, it's hard to defend 1NTx with no information", opener can XX with a good 5-card suit
2x (not C) "to play" -5+ card suit expected
2c - to play *unless doubled*; if doubled, scramble to 4-3 fit or undoubled.

We call it "2C scramble"...

Two advantages over p-forces-xx; first is play 1ntx as above; second is they don't get two shots at deciding what to do.

Also, it's fun watching those who don't play double sets a force at all try to figure out what to do against 2c.


How often do you get to use the business redouble?

When I play weak NT, I play something similar to your structure, but Responder's redouble does not see to crop up as often as I feel it ought to.

This may be a situation where a completely different structure should be played at matchpoints compared with IMPs.
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#9 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2017-October-04, 16:09

I play with some partners that all redoubles with our without a previous pass by either opener or responder are both majors or both minors. Bids are natural or shortage with both suits above. Pass is to play.
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#10 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-October-05, 03:16

View Postlamford, on 2017-October-04, 16:09, said:

I play with some partners that all redoubles with our without a previous pass by either opener or responder are both majors or both minors. Bids are natural or shortage with both suits above. Pass is to play.

So you have 2 ways to show both majors (XX and 2) or both minors (XX and 2) but no way of showing + or +? That just feels wrong somehow...
(-: Zel :-)
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#11 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2017-October-14, 10:48

Im Canadian and one thing I can say about weak NT players here is that many "A" players that play weak NT understand that its better to bid directly natural with a singlesuiter and wriggle (2C/XX/FP) with a 2-3 suiter than do the opposite.

IMO nothing come close to the very simple

2Y= natural 5card
XX= at least 44.
pass = pts or 4333 (so to play) opener can XX with a 5 card suit.

IMO transfers, suction and FP methods are all inferior because they allow advancer to show pts with very little risk. No matter what you gain by rightsiding you lose because they will be in better FP situation.
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#12 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-October-14, 16:43

View Postbenlessard, on 2017-October-14, 10:48, said:

Im Canadian and one thing I can say about weak NT players here is that many "A" players that play weak NT understand that its better to bid directly natural with a singlesuiter and wriggle (2C/XX/FP) with a 2-3 suiter than do the opposite.

I tend to disagree here Ben. The theory of Spelvic is for us to find our spade fit quickly and safely if we have it to be able to compete more successfully for the part score. If we XX and they compete to 2red we are never going to find our 2 contract. If on the other hand we were able to respond 2 showing the black suits, we will. Much as with 4th seat openings, it pays to understand the power of the spade suit in these auctions and this is of far greater benefit than any thought of rightsiding.
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#13 User is offline   benlessard 

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Posted 2017-October-29, 13:24

View PostZelandakh, on 2017-October-14, 16:43, said:

I tend to disagree here Ben. The theory of Spelvic is for us to find our spade fit quickly and safely if we have it to be able to compete more successfully for the part score. If we XX and they compete to 2red we are never going to find our 2 contract. If on the other hand we were able to respond 2 showing the black suits, we will. Much as with 4th seat openings, it pays to understand the power of the spade suit in these auctions and this is of far greater benefit than any thought of rightsiding.


I play weak NT vul and my goal is mostly to scramble rather than to compete. If LHO pull the penalty double/XX because he is broke he tend to bid a minor rather than a major. so you can usally make a neg X over 2m.

If it goes

1NT--(X)--XX--(P showing pts/setting up FP)

finding 2S isnt my priority.

If i play people who dont bid when 4ht seat got a poor hand im well ahead since they wont play FP over my runout.
From Psych "I mean, Gus and I never see eye-to-eye on work stuff.
For instance, he doesn't like being used as a human shield when we're being shot at.
I happen to think it's a very noble way to meet one's maker, especially for a guy like him.
Bottom line is we never let that difference of opinion interfere with anything."
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