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Rebid after opening with 4x diamonds

#1 User is offline   marpool 

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Posted 2017-September-19, 09:42

Playing matchpoint pairs, 15-17 NT, 5-card majors with clubs maybe a short suit, I held the East hand as dealer. Game all.

♠ K 7 5
♥ A J T 5
♦ A 8 7 4
♣ T 7

I opened 1D. Next hand overcalled 2S (6-10 HCP, 6x suit) partner bid 3C then a pass to me.

I suppose I have to bid 3NT. I hate the idea because I expect the spade King to go on the first trick, quite probably I'll lose a club setting up the suit and then watch the next five tricks go to South's spades.

I temporised with 3D, which system says shows 5x diamonds. Partner passed with

♠ Q 6
♥ 8 6 4
♦ Q
♣ A K Q J 6 5 3

The 4-1 fit did not play well. 3NT is easy on those cards; 5C makes (heart honours divided) - even 4H makes (hearts 3-3).

On reflection I think I have two main choices. One, to pass balanced 12 counts; two, to bid 3NT and hope.

(We have no agreement about the meaning of a cue bid here.)

I'd welcome thoughts. I'm in the UK so most of my experience has been 12-14 NT and 4-card majors. That combination doesn't give rise to this sort of problem.
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#2 User is offline   bravejason 

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Posted 2017-September-19, 11:35

What was wrong with bidding hearts? Partner would have then known you had short clubs and based on the 2S overcall could infer you were also short on spades. He'd then be in a position to take a preference or return to clubs. As it was, he probably thinks you have 6 diamonds, not just 5, based on the bidding), so passing with a singleton diamond honor made sense.

Avoiding the NT seems a bit over cautious to me. You have stoppers in all suits (assuming partners clubs had one). There is a risk with the spades, but the overcaller probably cannot obtain the lead often enough to play all the spades (how many can his partner have) and overcaller likely does not have a side suit high card as an entry.

Fundamentally, I think the issue was you wanted partner to bid again, but didn't make a bid to force him to do so. You said the cue bid was undefined. No way to know what partner would do except that he sure would have bid again after a cue bid.
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#3 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2017-September-19, 11:41

It's MPs, you have a stopper, a balanced hand, and partner has shown about an opening hand.

Oh, and partner has not made a negative double so is less likely to have 4 .

So what's the logical game?

Especially at MPs, that's 3 NT, so bid it. It may be a bit uncomfortable, but it's right.

Assuming partner hasn't done anything unusual, a 3 NT bid rates to be somewhere around an average result whether it makes or goes down. With your hand, most players are going to bid 3 NT. So, taking any other action is playing top or bottom bridge.

It can get scary bidding it with a single stopper, but that's part of the game. It's normal a little more at MPs. You don't know what's in partner's hand. So taking any action because you are worried that it might not have the right cards to make is an error.

In another thread, I proffered that a principle of good bidding is "Don't place cards in your partner's hand unless bridge logic tells you they are there." The other side of that coin is "If you don't know what partner holds, don't assume that partner doesn't hold the right cards for you unless bridge logic tells you there are not there."
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#4 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2017-September-19, 12:34

Your PD needs to be rushed to the ER and checked for a pulse! He has 14 HCP and 7 running tricks and passed 3 after you opened :rolleyes: ! Of course he should try for game with a 3 cue-bid asking for a stopper. If you don't have one, 4 should be safe enough!
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#5 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-September-19, 14:55

Partner is an unlimited hand bidding 3. Except if you have an agreement that it is a free bid, you should make the appropriate response. With a stopper in s just bid 3NT. Keep it simple. Don't talk yourself out of the right contract that this is going to happen, or that is going to happen, etc.
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#6 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-September-19, 16:19

View Postmarpool, on 2017-September-19, 09:42, said:

I'd welcome thoughts. I'm in the UK so most of my experience has been 12-14 NT and 4-card majors. That combination doesn't give rise to this sort of problem.

What everyone said is correct but why did you have a problem?
Just do what you would have done playing weak NT and had opened 1 minor.
That should be right and your partner will know you have less in strength and stoppers.


Sarcasm is a state of mind
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#7 User is offline   marpool 

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Posted 2017-September-19, 23:39

Thank you all - very helpful. From now on, I will grit my teeth and bid 3NT.

Partner's a bit heated about this at the moment. I'll give a bit of time for cooling down, then take up the point, as The_Badger makes, that even after 3D (admittedly a mistake) maybe there is more bidding to be done.
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#8 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2017-September-20, 04:00

Do you play Lebensohl after 2S? If you do then 3c rates to be a decent hand, not just competitive. I think I would bid 3H giving p the chance to cue bid spades, bid 3N or retreat to 4C with a ratty suit

At least you did not pass and I agree with those who think p should try a 3S cuebid even with his H holding
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#9 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-September-20, 04:43

View Postnekthen, on 2017-September-20, 04:00, said:

Do you play Lebensohl after 2S? If you do then 3c rates to be a decent hand, not just competitive. I think I would bid 3H giving p the chance to cue bid spades, bid 3N or retreat to 4C with a ratty suit

At least you did not pass and I agree with those who think p should try a 3S cuebid even with his H holding


The opening was 1 not 1NT. They were probably not playing Lebensohl in this sequence.
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#10 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-September-20, 04:52

View Poststeve2005, on 2017-September-19, 16:19, said:

What everyone said is correct but why did you have a problem?
Just do what you would have done playing weak NT and had opened 1 minor.
That should be right and your partner will know you have less in strength and stoppers.


It is a little more complicated than this. If they were playing a weak NT they would have opened 1NT on this hand. A 1 opening will generally show at least 15 HCP or be unbalanced with five or more diamonds. With a strong NT hand he will be a lot happier bidding 3NT with only a single stop (the auction is less likely to occur anyway). With an unbalanced hand, it is more sensible to rebid the diamonds to show the minimum.

I have sympathy for OP transitioning to "strong and five" from "weak and four". He will encounter new problems.
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#11 User is offline   arthh 

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  Posted 2017-September-20, 05:02

View Postmarpool, on 2017-September-19, 09:42, said:

Playing matchpoint pairs, 15-17 NT, 5-card majors with clubs maybe a short suit, I held the East hand as dealer. Game all.

♠ K 7 5
♥ A J T 5
♦ A 8 7 4
♣ T 7

I opened 1D. Next hand overcalled 2S (6-10 HCP, 6x suit) partner bid 3C then a pass to me.

I suppose I have to bid 3NT. I hate the idea because I expect the spade King to go on the first trick, quite probably I'll lose a club setting up the suit and then watch the next five tricks go to South's spades.

I temporised with 3D, which system says shows 5x diamonds. Partner passed with

♠ Q 6
♥ 8 6 4
♦ Q
♣ A K Q J 6 5 3

The 4-1 fit did not play well. 3NT is easy on those cards; 5C makes (heart honours divided) - even 4H makes (hearts 3-3).

On reflection I think I have two main choices. One, to pass balanced 12 counts; two, to bid 3NT and hope.

(We have no agreement about the meaning of a cue bid here.)

I'd welcome thoughts. I'm in the UK so most of my experience has been 12-14 NT and 4-card majors. That combination doesn't give rise to this sort of problem.

Easy one, the (Bob) Hammann rule. When 3NT is a possible contract, bid it.

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#12 User is offline   fourdad 

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Posted 2017-September-20, 05:17

I am a bit surprised that no one has suggested that you PASS rather than open at all!
How do you think the hand plays out if you do?
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#13 User is offline   RD350LC 

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Posted 2017-September-20, 06:23

View Postbravejason, on 2017-September-19, 11:35, said:

What was wrong with bidding hearts? Partner would have then known you had short clubs and based on the 2S overcall could infer you were also short on spades. He'd then be in a position to take a preference or return to clubs. As it was, he probably thinks you have 6 diamonds, not just 5, based on the bidding), so passing with a singleton diamond honor made sense.

Avoiding the NT seems a bit over cautious to me. You have stoppers in all suits (assuming partners clubs had one). There is a risk with the spades, but the overcaller probably cannot obtain the lead often enough to play all the spades (how many can his partner have) and overcaller likely does not have a side suit high card as an entry.

Fundamentally, I think the issue was you wanted partner to bid again, but didn't make a bid to force him to do so. You said the cue bid was undefined. No way to know what partner would do except that he sure would have bid again after a cue bid.

Under no circumstance would I bid hearts. P could have made a negative double if he had hearts, and you bidding them is a reverse, and would force p to the 4 level to return to diamonds.
P did make a free bid at the 3 level, and I see no reason to avoid 3NT. You do have a spade stopper, and hearts are covered.
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#14 User is offline   RD350LC 

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Posted 2017-September-20, 06:23

To pass a hand with 12 hcp and 2 1/2 quick tricks is overly conservative. I fully agree with the opening bid.
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#15 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2017-September-20, 07:25

I would open 1D as you did and I would be worried about 3NT as you were, but nonetheless I would bid 3NT. It's true that on such hands you usually need to have 9 running tricks after you get the lead, else you are going down, but sometimes you make, sometimes you don't, I would just bid it.

As to 3D showing 5, if I were your partner and asked to explain 3D I would just say that this was a forcing situation and 3D was what you thought best. The opponents have preempted, partner has forced you to bid at the 3 level, it is unrealistic to think that there is a well-defined meaning for each of the small number of choices that you have.

Also, although you did not ask, if I were your partner I would not pass 3D. Partly this is the same logic:
He can reason: Maybe we can make 3NT, maybe we can make 5C, maybe neither, but I am not passing. But even without looking at your partner's hand I don't think 3D should be passable. With a weaker hand he could pass the 2S and then, if this is followed by a pass and you reopen, he can bid 3C. If my partner bids 3C directly over the 2S call then I expect to hear from him again after I rebid D.

Bidding over a 2S preempt is tough, but I don't think 3C followed by a pass of 3D is a good approach.
Ken
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#16 User is online   cherdano 

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Posted 2017-September-20, 07:54

It is much better to play 3C as game forcing. You are pretty much forced to 4C or 3N anyway (very rare that you can stop in 3D and know it's right), so it is better to just use all available space to find the best game.
Obviously we have a recall bias in favour of the assholes. -helene_t
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#17 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2017-September-20, 08:50

View PostTramticket, on 2017-September-20, 04:43, said:

The opening was 1 not 1NT. They were probably not playing Lebensohl in this sequence.


Traditional Lebensohl is indeed used after a natural overcall of 1N. However, there are many other times a leb like structure is useful

2any (weak) dbl p ?
1x 2y (weak jump) ?
1x 1y 2z (reverse)?
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#18 User is offline   bluechip10 

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Posted 2017-September-20, 10:14

View Postmarpool, on 2017-September-19, 09:42, said:

Playing matchpoint pairs, 15-17 NT, 5-card majors with clubs maybe a short suit, I held the East hand as dealer. Game all.

♠ K 7 5
♥ A J T 5
♦ A 8 7 4
♣ T 7

I opened 1D. Next hand overcalled 2S (6-10 HCP, 6x suit) partner bid 3C then a pass to me.

I suppose I have to bid 3NT. I hate the idea because I expect the spade King to go on the first trick, quite probably I'll lose a club setting up the suit and then watch the next five tricks go to South's spades.

I temporised with 3D, which system says shows 5x diamonds. Partner passed with

♠ Q 6
♥ 8 6 4
♦ Q
♣ A K Q J 6 5 3

The 4-1 fit did not play well. 3NT is easy on those cards; 5C makes (heart honours divided) - even 4H makes (hearts 3-3).

On reflection I think I have two main choices. One, to pass balanced 12 counts; two, to bid 3NT and hope.

(We have no agreement about the meaning of a cue bid here.)

I'd welcome thoughts. I'm in the UK so most of my experience has been 12-14 NT and 4-card majors. That combination doesn't give rise to this sort of problem.


Too many times we get too scientific. You should just bid 3NT with your hand to avoid any confusion. Remember, lots of other people will be holding the exact hand and bidding the exact way. If 3NT is cold, then you plan is to make overtricks. Otherwise, everyone goes down the same. As an aside, most jump overcalls are made with garbage suits; so when dummy comes down, it makes it much easier to know where all the cards are.If the odds are on, you can make 11 tricks.
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#19 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2017-September-20, 14:08

View Postmarpool, on 2017-September-19, 23:39, said:

Thank you all - very helpful. From now on, I will grit my teeth and bid 3NT.

Partner's a bit heated about this at the moment. I'll give a bit of time for cooling down, then take up the point, as The_Badger makes, that even after 3D (admittedly a mistake) maybe there is more bidding to be done.


I agree with others that 3D probably wasn't the best bid, but partner made a far worse mistake in passing it out!
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#20 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2017-September-20, 21:22

it's 100% normal to open this hand. if you decided to not open 12s, you would have the same feeling of dubiousness whenever you held 13 on this auction. and yes, you just bid 3NT over 3C. partner's forced you to make this decision. he should perforce have a good hand. you have no idea what spades partner has and you have no idea what tricks you can run if partner has nothing in spades and your stop is knocked out immediately, so to just guess 3NT can't make is excessive and as you found out, it's not like any other option is sensible.

of course your partner was crazy to pass 3D though.
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