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There Aren't Enough Forcing Major Raises Solutions?

#1 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-September-16, 15:08

You hold: 109KQ9KQ82A984

No opposition bidding, partner opens 1H. What now?
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#2 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2017-September-16, 15:15

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-September-16, 15:08, said:

You hold: 109KQ9KQ82A984

No opposition bidding, partner opens 1H. What now?



Playing standard or 2/1 or some such
Playing Jacoby, 2NT seems obvious
Playing Raise+ = GF raise, 2S seems obvious

Playing Precision or some such
4H seems obvious
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#3 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-September-16, 15:26

I think many would revolt bidding Jacoby without 4-card support.
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#4 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2017-September-16, 15:32

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-September-16, 15:26, said:

I think many would revolt bidding Jacoby without 4-card support.


Sorry, my bad. I read it as KQxx in Hearts

Mark me down for 2
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#5 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-September-16, 15:37

For the life of me I can't see how there is any problem with describing this hand and keeping the bidding open using 2/1, SAYC, Acol, Precision, Polish Club, Blue Club or any other respectable system, or am I missing something?
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#6 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-September-16, 15:50

View Posthrothgar, on 2017-September-16, 15:32, said:

Sorry, my bad. I read it as KQxx in Hearts

Mark me down for 2


My fault - I had a little trouble with the editor and posted the suits after the held cards.
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#7 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-September-16, 15:56

View PostThe_Badger, on 2017-September-16, 15:37, said:

For the life of me I can't see how there is any problem with describing this hand and keeping the bidding open using 2/1, SAYC, Acol, Precision, Polish Club, Blue Club or any other respectable system, or am I missing something?


If you play 2/1, you have to make a bid in a 4-card suit to create a force. This is no different than SAYC. When you later show heart support, the bidding makes it sound like you are much more distributional than you are, not to mention that many consider the 2/1 suit should indicate a source of tricks.

Next, the poor spade holding precludes a NT bid.

Finally, as stated above, most people play that Jacoby requires 4-card support.

The problem with this hand is that it is a classic example of the old-fashioned forcing raise (1H-3H) that we no longer have available due to modern bidding choices.
Myself, I can think of a number of hands I would like to be able to bid a forcing 3M - because that allows a more precise description of other types of raises. Wouldn't it be better to bid 3H over 1H with Axx, KQx, xxxxx, Ax than 2D?
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#8 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-September-16, 17:25

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-September-16, 15:08, said:

You hold: 10 9 K Q 9 K Q 8 2 A 9 8 4
No opposition bidding, partner opens 1H. What now?

We would bid 2 = TRF good 3 card raise.
After 1M we've recently agreed a simple mini-splinter structure. e.g. after 1:
  • 1 = NAT
  • 1N = NAT 6-11
  • 2 = REL 12+. F1. Artificial. Then 2 = ART Sound opener.
  • 2 = TRF 8+ 3 s. Good raise to at least 2.
  • 2 = NAT 0-8. Poor raise.
  • 2 = SPL 4+ s and any singleton). Raise to 3 or 5. Then 2N = ASK for singleton?
  • 2N = ART. 4+ s BAL or void. Raise to 3 or 5. Then 3 = ASK whiich?
  • 3/ = SPL 4+ s and this void. Raise to 3 or 5.
  • 3 = PRE
  • 3-4 = Same but game raise

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#9 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-September-16, 17:55

Pudding raise!
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#10 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2017-September-16, 19:18

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-September-16, 15:08, said:

You hold: 109KQ9KQ82A984

No opposition bidding, partner opens 1H. What now?


T9
KQ9
KQ82
A984
I bid 2. Now about what means what when playing what.
Yes, I believe 1-2NT(Jac) shows 4.
However, if we are playing " the old-fashioned forcing raise", and I have played that, I play that as also showing 4. And pretty much for the same reasons. So you would have the same problem.

But let us assume 2/1. Most everyone agrees that 1-2 shows five hearts. But after 1M-2m, choices have to be made.

I have played that bidding 1M-2 shows five diamonds. This is playable but then 1M-2 has to be a catchall. There is no choice. You can have the above hand after a 1 opening, and you could have a 3=4=4=2 shape after a 1 opening. You cannot rationally require that 1M-2m be based on five cards regardless of what m is.

I have also played, in fact I usually play, that 1M-2 can be on 4. This makes life easier, but sometimes you will wish it showed five.

I am not going to say which is best, I don't have a strong opinion on that. Even if you agree that 1M-2 can be on 4 you can still have an issue if you are 3=4=3=3 and partner opens 1.. You can cut down on the frequency by agreeing that 1-3NT shows a minimum hand, as game forces go, with exactly 3=4=3=3 distribution. I have never played that, but I can see the point.

You will sometimes see the claim that 1M-2m shows five cards in m, without any further stipulation. This simply cannot be. Of course almost all players occasionally encounter a hand such that their system won't handle it and they have to fake it, but setting up a system that clearly cannot be adhered to does not make sense.

I realize that there may be be some complex systems that I am not familiar with. But I am assuming that in the natural bidding forum it's ok to look at 2/1 but exotic artificial sequences go elsewhere.

Added: When playing that 1M-2 promises five I alert and include that fact, and I also alert 1M-2 and explain that the bid is game forcing but is not always on a real club suit. If more detail is asked for I supply it
Ken
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#11 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-September-16, 19:56

View Postkenberg, on 2017-September-16, 19:18, said:

T9
KQ9
KQ82
A984
I bid 2. Now about what means what when playing what.
Yes, I believe 1-2NT(Jac) shows 4.
However, if we are playing " the old-fashioned forcing raise", and I have played that, I play that as also showing 4. And pretty much for the same reasons. So you would have the same problem.

But let us assume 2/1. Most everyone agrees that 1-2 shows five hearts. But after 1M-2m, choices have to be made.

I have played that bidding 1M-2 shows five diamonds. This is playable but then 1M-2 has to be a catchall. There is no choice. You can have the above hand after a 1 opening, and you could have a 3=4=4=2 shape after a 1 opening. You cannot rationally require that 1M-2m be based on five cards regardless of what m is.

I have also played, in fact I usually play, that 1M-2 can be on 4. This makes life easier, but sometimes you will wish it showed five.

I am not going to say which is best, I don't have a strong opinion on that. Even if you agree that 1M-2 can be on 4 you can still have an issue if you are 3=4=3=3 and partner opens 1.. You can cut down on the frequency by agreeing that 1-3NT shows a minimum hand, as game forces go, with exactly 3=4=3=3 distribution. I have never played that, but I can see the point.

You will sometimes see the claim that 1M-2m shows five cards in m, without any further stipulation. This simply cannot be. Of course almost all players occasionally encounter a hand such that their system won't handle it and they have to fake it, but setting up a system that clearly cannot be adhered to does not make sense.

I realize that there may be be some complex systems that I am not familiar with. But I am assuming that in the natural bidding forum it's ok to look at 2/1 but exotic artificial sequences go elsewhere.

Added: When playing that 1M-2 promises five I alert and include that fact, and I also alert 1M-2 and explain that the bid is game forcing but is not always on a real club suit. If more detail is asked for I supply it


Just as a FYI, a few years back I developed a raise structure re-working Bergen raises that allowed 1M-3M to be a strong raise based on 3-card support. It was in Bridge World. I guess it didn't have much impact on the real bridge world, though. :P
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#12 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-September-16, 20:13

I say Kit Woolsey say something like this on this sort of hand. Your playing 5-card majors is it that terrible to play in an 8 card fit instead thing it was a 9.
There is something to be said for finding the trump suit immediately so you are on the same page.
Plus Precision 4H is easy
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#13 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2017-September-16, 20:30

2 followed by heart support should show something like this. If you want to emphasize the club suit you will have to jump at your second turn.
Jesus! You have 7 count 5332 hand and pd passed 1 NT ffs! Are you planning to compete to 4 level or DBL a partscore with this shape and/or tricks? People who spend too much time in D.T topic started to talk like him --- MrAce
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#14 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-September-16, 21:26

View Poststeve2005, on 2017-September-16, 20:13, said:

I say Kit Woolsey say something like this on this sort of hand. Your playing 5-card majors is it that terrible to play in an 8 card fit instead thing it was a 9.


Well, the main reason for having a GF raise structure with the accompanying information leakage is for slam exploration -- if slam was not a consideration you would just jump to 4M. I think that the extra trump in the short hand is a big plus when playing in a slam.
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#15 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2017-September-16, 23:33

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-September-16, 15:08, said:

You hold: 109KQ9KQ82A984

No opposition bidding, partner opens 1H. What now?


Seems normal to bid 2c. If it bothers you to have to bid a 4 card suit, the way around that is to play Fred Gitelman's structure and respond with 2s (using 2nt as the forcing 4 card raise) or 2nt (using 2s as the forcing 4 card raise), in either case showing 12+ - 15- or 18+ with 2-3 h, 2-3 spades, and no 5 card minor. Not sure I want to declare NT with a low doub spade but there is still room to explore and get to the right game.
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#16 User is offline   mr1303 

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Posted 2017-September-17, 06:23

What about 2D? If partner has a singleton club I don't want to discourage, whereas diamond shortage is unlikely to be good news.

Probably won't matter but it might get us to a good slam.
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#17 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2017-September-17, 06:42

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-September-16, 19:56, said:

Just as a FYI, a few years back I developed a raise structure re-working Bergen raises that allowed 1M-3M to be a strong raise based on 3-card support. It was in Bridge World. I guess it didn't have much impact on the real bridge world, though. :P


Well, I subscribe to Bridge World. Which reminds me of a line on some tv show I saw: A woman was complaining that she had joined a health club but it hadn't done her a bit of good. "Apparently you also have to go" she said. Apparently you also have to read Bridge World for it to help.

Following up on what the Vamp and others have said, suppose that partner opens 1M and you have a fit and game forcing values. There are still things to consider. After you show a fit, opener might be interested in slam. A niine card fit might spark that interest. If you have only three card support other game contracts might be appealing. On some hands we might want to pay 3nT. If the opning was spades and we have three card spade support, it is at least possible that the right contract is 4H in a 4-4 fit. And getting back to slam prospects, with three card support it is possible that, say, 6D on a 4-4 fit is preferable to 6S on the 5-3 fit.

i imagine that you and others can think of further possibilities. So it is good to try to consider possibilities.

For many of us, reality suggests we don't let it get too complicated. Miami mentions notes by Fred on 2/1. I remember reading them and finding them interesting. Finding a partner who agreed to also read them, discuss them and play them was another matter.

I offer congrats on the Bridge World article. What issue, btw? But mostly I try to keep the conventional structure from taking over my bridge life. It would take some heavy arguments to get me to play a system where I could not bid 2C on this hand and then 3H over 2S or 2NT, or 2C and then 2H over 2D. It's not a great hand but I think it is too good for 2C followed by 4H. Elaborate systems can help. They can also get int he way.
Ken
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#18 User is offline   Flem72 

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Posted 2017-September-17, 07:36

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-September-16, 15:08, said:

You hold: 109KQ9KQ82A984

No opposition bidding, partner opens 1H. What now?


With one partner I play combined Bergen and use 3D as a balanced 3-cd raise, 10-15 support. Also, this hand is one of the big pluses of the Neb 2C structure, which I want to play whenever partner will. Both work for your Axx, KQx, xxxxx, Ax as well.
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#19 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-September-17, 07:46

View Postkenberg, on 2017-September-17, 06:42, said:

Well, I subscribe to Bridge World. Which reminds me of a line on some tv show I saw: A woman was complaining that she had joined a health club but it hadn't done her a bit of good. "Apparently you also have to go" she said. Apparently you also have to read Bridge World for it to help.

Following up on what the Vamp and others have said, suppose that partner opens 1M and you have a fit and game forcing values. There are still things to consider. After you show a fit, opener might be interested in slam. A niine card fit might spark that interest. If you have only three card support other game contracts might be appealing. On some hands we might want to pay 3nT. If the opning was spades and we have three card spade support, it is at least possible that the right contract is 4H in a 4-4 fit. And getting back to slam prospects, with three card support it is possible that, say, 6D on a 4-4 fit is preferable to 6S on the 5-3 fit.

i imagine that you and others can think of further possibilities. So it is good to try to consider possibilities.

For many of us, reality suggests we don't let it get too complicated. Miami mentions notes by Fred on 2/1. I remember reading them and finding them interesting. Finding a partner who agreed to also read them, discuss them and play them was another matter.

I offer congrats on the Bridge World article. What issue, btw? But mostly I try to keep the conventional structure from taking over my bridge life. It would take some heavy arguments to get me to play a system where I could not bid 2C on this hand and then 3H over 2S or 2NT, or 2C and then 2H over 2D. It's not a great hand but I think it is too good for 2C followed by 4H. Elaborate systems can help. They can also get int he way.


I don't even remember the issue number - it was back in the mid to late 90s. The title was: Better Bergen Raises. The problem with this hand is really one of how to bid it
playing 2/1 - I don't count SAYC as that is a blunderbuss method anyway.
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#20 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2017-September-17, 08:29

View PostWinstonm, on 2017-September-17, 07:46, said:

I don't even remember the issue number - it was back in the mid to late 90s. The title was: Better Bergen Raises. The problem with this hand is really one of how to bid it
playing 2/1 - I don't count SAYC as that is a blunderbuss method anyway.



♠T9
♥KQ9
♦ KQ82
♣A984

Partner opens 1H. Probably at least 9 times out of 10 the correct contract is 4H. So I see the question as how to find the other possibilities without creatng som much confusion tht you land in sme silly contract.

1H-2C-2S. Already we need agreements. If opener is minimum I prefer a 2H rebid on 5. The 2S does not have to promise the moon, but it should be something extra. We can rule out 6C and 6D as possible contracts and 3NT would seem odd, so I bid 3H. If we belong in 6H we have a decent chance of finding it.

1H-2C-2D. Now 6D is in play. I still start with 2H, I plan to show diamonds later. This is a little risky as partner might think this shows a stiff spade but I think he shoould allow for 2=3=4=4.

1H-2C-2NT-3H. Since partner (my partner) is allowed to rebid 2H oveer 2C on five, I assume he has a spades stop for his 2NT. Still we probably belong in hearts. If partner, over 3H, chooses 3S I would regard this as something of a last train offer to play in 3NT. I might take him up on it but I think I still go with hearts, so I bid 4C in case that interests him.

1H-2C-2H-3H. I'm showing a decent hand and I more or less have one. On the auction so far I am not embarrassed to lay down the dummy.

1H-2C-3C-3H. Partner has hearts and clubs, I have clubs and hearts, the ball is n his court.

I don't see this as a problem hand.

I might hunt up Fred's articles on an improved 2/1 just for the fun of it. No doubt there is room for improvement on standard. But I think when problems arise in 2/1 we again have a 9 out of 10 probability that the difficulty is not that the system is bad but that the players have not discussed what means what. As mentioned, I like 1H-1m-2S to promise a little extra, using 1H-2m-2H with a minimum. It's different when it begins 1D-2C. Now there are two majors to sort out and I think we need to get started, even with a minimum. So 1D-2C-2M simply shows four cards in M without necessarily any extra values. These are my preferences. Are they the same as the preferences of the guy sitting across from me? Often I have no idea..
Ken
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