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Minor suits Sometimes they are right

#21 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2017-September-14, 09:27

View Postsfi, on 2017-September-14, 09:18, said:

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned a possible start of:

1C - 1H
1S - 2D
2H - 3C

South should be showing the club fit rather than the diamond stopper. Even if the hand were weaker it would be right to do so much of the time - South can show a club fit and suggest 3NT if they start with 3C but not if they start with 2NT.


I think that I did mention it, at least I meant to. After 1C-1H-1S -2D the strong consensus is that opener should have rebid 2H rather than 2NT. After that I would have bid 3C. Not being sure what partner would bid over my 1H had s/he held 4=3=3=3 I would not be certain yet of a four card club holding but certainly it is possible/likely. Partner does have four spades. The problem I now see is that artner might not be sure whether my 3C was a slam try in clubs or simply a caution based on me not having a diamond stop. With the three card heart holding and the Kx of diamonds, partner might well figure the right call is 3NT, saying "I can stop the Ds if you would like us to play there". If that happens, I would still be unsure of whether partner started with 4=3=2=4 or 4=3=3=3.

Lots to think about, imo
Ken
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#22 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2017-September-14, 09:29

View Postnekthen, on 2017-September-14, 09:13, said:

Slightly off topic, but as a weak nt fan how would people bid after
1N?

presumably you start with stayman
2
2 3?

Hopefully p will bid 4 and we find the slam
but he may well bid 3N though 3 is a slam try so 4 seems right


I'm not a weak notrumper but in strong nts that certainly is, imo, a slam try in clubs and I trust it would be for the weakies as well.
Ken
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#23 User is offline   Left2Right 

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Posted 2017-September-14, 13:27

You suffer the same challenge that most players do: Fourth Suit Game Forcing is one of the least well documented conventions in all of bridge.

In addition, the published versions are either the “one-round force” version, or are as incomplete as the link you posted. You can tell the ACBL doc is incomplete because there is no mention of raising the responder's quasi-artificial fourth suit when opener owns four of them.

According to my world class source (someone who was in on the original design of 2/1), most experts abandoned the published, invitational version of 4SF about 20 years ago. It's 4SGF all the way now.

So partnerships must achieve(design?) an in-depth understanding of all the possible continuations, all the way through three rounds of bidding, including how to prioritize all those many the choices.

If you send me your e-mail address via BBO chat mail, I'll forward you my outline that does all of the above.

At my table, the auction would proceed as follows. http://tinyurl.com/ycw6awtm

P.S. #1 Also, I strongly recommend that you take up Kickback with your best partners. It will save many auctions, especially 4SGF ones, from getting too high.

P.S. #2. You and your better partners can practice those myriad 4SGF hands with my constraint file designed for just such hands.
See http://www.charlesan...raints.html#4sf
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#24 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2017-September-14, 15:38

View PostLeft2Right, on 2017-September-14, 13:27, said:

You suffer the same challenge that most players do: Fourth Suit Game Forcing is one of the least well documented conventions in all of bridge.

In addition, the published versions are either the "one-round force" version, or are as incomplete as the link you posted. You can tell the ACBL doc is incomplete because there is no mention of raising the responder's quasi-artificial fourth suit when opener owns four of them.

According to my world class source (someone who was in on the original design of 2/1), most experts abandoned the published, invitational version of 4SF about 20 years ago. It's 4SGF all the way now.

So partnerships must achieve(design?) an in-depth understanding of all the possible continuations, all the way through three rounds of bidding, including how to prioritize all those many the choices.

If you send me your e-mail address via BBO chat mail, I'll forward you my outline that does all of the above.

At my table, the auction would proceed as follows. http://tinyurl.com/ycw6awtm

P.S. #1 Also, I strongly recommend that you take up Kickback with your best partners. It will save many auctions, especially 4SGF ones, from getting too high.

P.S. #2. You and your better partners can practice those myriad 4SGF hands with my constraint file designed for just such hands.
See http://www.charlesan...raints.html#4sf


Thanks. I will start by looking this all over but I expect I will probably take you up on this. One problem, of course, is getting partners to cooperate.



For a couple of years I have been trying to convince partners to buy Mike Lawrence's disk on convention(I get no kickback, I promise). It isn't tha Mike Lawrence is a bridge god, but he does have an accomplishment or two, so my thinking is that why not just go at it wholesale ans say we play the such and such convention the way ML says. no takers so far. Perhaps I will have better luck with what you have. I am sufficiently interested in bridge to try to do well, but not so much so that I want to create a whole system of my own. Which nobody would agree to anyway.


Today, playing f2f, I opened 1D in 3rd seat. Partner bid 2D and I bid 3NT. Naturally the opponents wanted to know if 2D was inverted. As happens more often than it probably should, I told them that I was pretty sure we had agreed that inverted minors were off for a passed hand but I was not positive. Not satisfactory but honest. They led, dummy came down with four diamonds and an 11 count. Oh well. It worked out fine, we can make 6D because of the lucky lie of the cards (I had a balanced 19 count) but 3NT was a decent matchpoint contract especially since I made 6. Those few who were in 6D beat me, but it was a lucky slam. My point is that a lot of bridge at the non-expert level hinges on whether or not the partners remember th details what they are playing.

Anyway, I am tired (a session of bridge and then some garden stuff) but I will get to this. Thanks.
Ken
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#25 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2017-September-14, 16:29

View Postnekthen, on 2017-September-14, 09:13, said:

Slightly off topic, but as a weak nt fan how would people bid after 1N?

System is rather relevant here. Many weak NTers play a specialist response for 1444 hands such as 3. If you have this in your armoury then you will presumably use it. Others use a convention known as Baron, which in the UK is usually initiated with a 2 response. 4 card suits are then bid up the line until a fit is found. Another way of initiating Baron is via Stayman. A method that I have used myself is for the sequence 1NT - 2; 2 - 3 to ask Opener for any 4 card minor, with 3 showing clubs and 3 showing diamonds. In any case, a little system can help a lot on hands like this, for the weak NTers just as much as for the 1 openers.
(-: Zel :-)
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#26 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2017-September-14, 16:46

View Postkenberg, on 2017-September-14, 09:27, said:

I think that I did mention it, at least I meant to. After 1C-1H-1S -2D the strong consensus is that opener should have rebid 2H rather than 2NT. After that I would have bid 3C. Not being sure what partner would bid over my 1H had s/he held 4=3=3=3 I would not be certain yet of a four card club holding but certainly it is possible/likely. Partner does have four spades. The problem I now see is that artner might not be sure whether my 3C was a slam try in clubs or simply a caution based on me not having a diamond stop. With the three card heart holding and the Kx of diamonds, partner might well figure the right call is 3NT, saying "I can stop the Ds if you would like us to play there". If that happens, I would still be unsure of whether partner started with 4=3=2=4 or 4=3=3=3.

Lots to think about, imo


So you did - apologies. 3C is ambiguous in that sequence, but when you follow up with 3NT it shows a slam try in clubs since you could have just bid NT the round earlier rather than revealing the club fit. The actual hand is too strong to merely suggest slam, so South could follow up with 4C over 3NT. This should get you to 6C comfortably.
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