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Rebid opposite a passing partner

#1 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2017-September-09, 20:33

I thought I knew what was standard in the following situation but yesterday I had a disagreement with a partner.

1 (2) Pass (Pass)
2 ...

What is the minimum requirement for 2 here?

What is the strongest hand you would bid 2 on?

What is the minimum or a jump to 3?

Are there similar hands that would double first and then rebid spades?
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#2 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-September-09, 20:41

There are certainly has that would double and then bid spades.
Any hand with 0-2 spades potentially would be a candidate as the best hands partner can have will have hearts. Doubling caters to this.
The range of strength to double and bid will depend on many variables.
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#3 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-September-09, 21:27

View PostCascade, on 2017-September-09, 20:33, said:

I thought I knew what was standard in the following situation but yesterday I had a disagreement with a partner.
1 (2) Pass (Pass)
2 ...
What is the minimum requirement for 2 here?
What is the strongest hand you would bid 2 on?
What is the minimum or a jump to 3?
Are there similar hands that would double first and then rebid spades?

It depends on partnership agreement. In many partnerships, opener must call again if short in the overcall-suit.
If responder passed with values, then those values are likely to be the overcall-suit.
Hence, opener should re-open with a double, if possible, rather than bid a suit.
Responder should allow for the possibility of off-shape doubles e.g.
A x x x x x x A K x x x x
Sometimes, however, opener will have little defence or shortage in an unbid suit.
A void in opponent's suit also reduces defensive suitability.
In Cascade's auction, declarer might rebid 2 with as little as
K Q J x x x - x x Q J x x x
Opener might rebid 2 with a stronger hand e.g.
A K Q J x x x Q J x x x x
For a 3 rebid, opener needs a good suit e.g.
A Q J x x x x x K Q x x x
But players' judgements vary and different partnerships will have different agreements for all these calls.
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#4 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-September-09, 22:59

I will ask the question another way: What's the minimum for partner to make a negative double on this auction?
It's sometimes assumed that partner has passed as he's holding the opponent's suit when in reality he's just got a poor hand. A 2 overcaller on this auction could have 15+, especially vulnerable, preferring an overcall to double and bidding his suit, or being totally barraged out of the auction by a pre-emptive raise of 3 from opener's partner.

Nige1 makes some good points, as always, but as he says this scenario, especially this s vs. s auction where there's less space to operate, is for partnership agreement.
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#5 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2017-September-10, 16:51

View Postnige1, on 2017-September-09, 21:27, said:

It depends on partnership agreement. In many partnerships, opener must call again if short in the overcall-suit.
If responder passed with values, then those values are likely to be the overcall-suit.
Hence, opener should re-open with a double, if possible, rather than bid a suit.
Responder should allow for the possibility of off-shape doubles e.g.
A x x x x x x A K x x x x
Sometimes, however, opener will have little defence or shortage in an unbid suit.
A void in opponent's suit also reduces defensive suitability.
In Cascade's auction, declarer might rebid 2 with as little as
K Q J x x x - x x Q J x x x
Opener might rebid 2 with a stronger hand e.g.
A K Q J x x x Q J x x x x
For a 3 rebid, opener needs a good suit e.g.
A Q J x x x x x K Q x x x
But players' judgements vary and different partnerships will have different agreements for all these calls.


Are these the strongest hands for 2?

What do you do with 16-18 points?

The 3 example that you gave seems to need a lot for game opposite a passing partner who could be weak.

I would bid 3 on a hand that just needs a trick or two and a perhaps a bit of luck to make game. The six loser hand you show seems quite weak since I think you will probably induce 3NT when partner has moderate values and a heart stopper with no spade fit.

Your strong hand with QJ only does not seem that strong. I would comfortably bid only 2 with KQ or Ax and even a little more.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#6 User is offline   Fluffy 

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Posted 2017-September-11, 05:10

2 spades promises a side singleton (not in hearts)

2 spades could be a bad 17 hand at most

3 spades should be rare, a really high ODR hand.
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#7 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2017-September-11, 23:03

View PostFluffy, on 2017-September-11, 05:10, said:

2 spades promises a side singleton (not in hearts)

2 spades could be a bad 17 hand at most

3 spades should be rare, a really high ODR hand.


Definitely with a singleton not in hearts you would bid. However I think there are problems with hands that do not have a singleton not in hearts. The frequent problem is when partner pulls a double to 3m and now you do not know whether to rebid your spades. Compare

1 2 Pass Pass
Dbl Pass 3 Pass
?

1 2 Pass Pass
2 Pass 3 Pass
?

On the second auction you are much happier passing. The more often we double maybe the more often we will extract a penalty but also the more often we will be guessing a round later.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#8 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2017-September-12, 09:38

My policy is to only rebid 2 when it is wrong.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
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#9 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2017-September-13, 09:14

Seems to me the two possibilities for 2S woud be either A) a hand strongly aligned toward offense or B) a hand too powerful to pass but with length in the overcalled suit. I would think all other hands would fall into the reopening double or pass categories.

As to top end, I would imagine playing strength more than anything else would determine the separation between 2 and 3. I would think a hand that reopens with 3S should have close to 9 tricks in hand - maybe a solid 8 or 8 1/2 trick hand. 3-card support, an odd king or even queen, and a ruffing value could be enough for to consider a raise to game by the passed hand.
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#10 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-September-13, 10:59

View PostCascade, on 2017-September-10, 16:51, said:

Are these the strongest hands for 2?
What do you do with 16-18 points?
The 3 example that you gave seems to need a lot for game opposite a passing partner who could be weak.
I would bid 3 on a hand that just needs a trick or two and a perhaps a bit of luck to make game. The six loser hand you show seems quite weak since I think you will probably induce 3NT when partner has moderate values and a heart stopper with no spade fit.
Your strong hand with QJ only does not seem that strong. I would comfortably bid only 2 with KQ or Ax and even a little more.

You and Fluffy have persuaded me that my 4th example hand falls far short of a 3 rebid.
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