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Looking for treatment after 1C-1H-1S

#1 User is offline   yunling 

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Posted 2017-September-07, 00:32



This went down on a heart lead,with other room bid and made 6 after a precision 2 opening.
So what should the 3NT mean here? How about 1-1-1-2-something-3NT?
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#2 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-September-07, 02:38

First 6 is hardly a cold contract. Need 1 loser in D and 0 losers in S. I would like being in 6. Not sure of the odds but I think is good.
If the opponents Precision promised 6 as is the modern way they are ahead of you to start.
If the opponents are using the older method they only promise 5 but will quickly find they have 6 barring interference.
EW have 13 points and 9 hearts in between them so interference is possible.
On your auction went 1C-1H so east may have hearts and not bid. At other table will go 2C-2D so east may have 2H bid but hand not supplied.

Anyways your auction. In standard 1S usually shows 5+C4S or better but could be 4=1=4=4. So you should be even with Precision at this point.
3N bid is not good. You can see 5C could be better than 3N. Hearts is a danger on this hand but move some of south's Clubs or Diamonds to Hearts and Diamonds could be a danger. So you are not sure of the final contract and there is still some chance for slam.
So the answer is fourth suit forcing. (google it)
Bid 2D which could be artificial and is GF. Now South will further describe your hand. This should get you to 5C easily. If you go to 6C will depend on later bidding.
With 6 top clubs 3 top spades void in hearts and AQT of diamonds between 2 hands I think normal bidding will get you there.
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#3 User is offline   akwoo 

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Posted 2017-September-07, 21:56

Generally, 1C-1H-1S-2D-something-3N should suggest a 5th heart, which is the most likely thing you're looking for with 4th suit forcing given that you show a diamond stopper with your 3N bid.

I think 3N is the right bid. Make your heart spots a little better, even Q98x, and 3N is a better game than 5C, particularly at MPs.
6C is a bad contract, though of course one can get lucky.

Suppose you bid 2D, and partner bids 2H with something like KT9x K8x xx AKxx. What are you going to bid now? If you bid 3N (or 3D followed by 3N), partner will correct to 4H, thinking you gave a choice of games with 5 hearts. If you bid 2S or 3C, partner will play you for more spades/clubs and possibly look for a slam.
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#4 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2017-September-08, 01:25

View Postyunling, on 2017-September-07, 00:32, said:



This went down on a heart lead,with other room bid and made 6 after a precision 2 opening.
So what should the 3NT mean here? How about 1-1-1-2-something-3NT?

If you play XYZ then I think it would apply in this context. Although 6 is a better contract, 3N seems to be the correct bid and is unlucky to fail.
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#5 User is online   awm 

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Posted 2017-September-08, 01:45

Surely 5 is better than 3nt (at least at IMPs). Six basically needs two of:

1. Clubs 2-2
2. Spade jack falling
3. A diamond guess

There are a few additional chances (hearts AKx, maybe strip hearts to get some end play chance in diamonds, etc). I'd rate it a bit over 50%.

Anyway, I'd bid 2 over 1 here. If opener has extra shape or values we could easily belong in a contract other than 3nt so no reason to take all the space. If opener had a balanced hand he would rebid 2 with three (I bid 2nt next to let him bid 3nt balanced or 3 4315; in the latter case we may want to be in five or six clubs) or 2nt with 4234 (I raise to 3nt). With the actual hand opener can bid 2 in my methods (I like to invert the 4-6 and 5-6 hands because of space and frequency) after which I can agree clubs with 3 and have a nice auction to the right spot. Without the inversion opener rebids 3 but I think it's reasonable to direct towards 5/6 here since partner has either 0-1 heart which means hearts are a problem or 1 diamond which means we have to run nine top tricks (imagine KJxx Ax x KJTxxx for example where five clubs is just cold and 3nt has little chance).
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#6 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-September-08, 22:17

View Postakwoo, on 2017-September-07, 21:56, said:

Generally, 1C-1H-1S-2D-something-3N should suggest a 5th heart, which is the most likely thing you're looking for with 4th suit forcing given that you show a diamond stopper with your 3N bid.



4th suit doesn't usually show anything. There is a bridge teacher around here telling her students, 4th suit usually asks for a stopper. This is just wrong.
4th suit either doesn't know what is best final contract or is so strong wants to force or make a slam try.
Fourth suit asks partner to describe their hand as best they can.. Partnerships of course can give priorities to showing things You later bid may show what your hand actually was, but not always and sometimes it won't be completely clear.
Here your hearts aren't good enough to just shoot 3N. What you later bid depends on what partner bids. My next bid will not always be 3N.
Also there is some chance that you will be able to play in partner's suit. Clubs is much safer than 3N and 6C has a play with partners hand.


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#7 User is offline   GrahamJson 

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Posted 2017-September-11, 12:29

The problem with using FSF is that you can end up with a murky sequence to the wrong contract. For example, give south Jxx in hearts and you'll likely to end up in a very poor 4H contract with 3NT cold. If you have very detailed agreements about sequences following FSF then maybe it is fine with the north hand, but for others it is probably asking for trouble. Will south picture you with a 4333 hand with all suits stopped?
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#8 User is online   awm 

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Posted 2017-September-11, 13:17

It's not that I have very detailed 4th suit agreements (in some partnerships I have more than others) -- the key is to view the 4th suit as an asking bid about openers shape and not as a showing bid about responders hand.

Basically after 4th suit opener completes his pattern description and responder sets the strain. There is no situation where responders bids 4th suit and then selects a game contract, and then opener overrules him and removes to a different strain (at least without significant extras that haven't yet been shown).
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