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1NT or 1S?

#1 User is offline   Tharinda97 

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Posted 2017-September-02, 21:42

What's the correct opening bid with this hand? (SAYC)
A K 10 5 2
A J
Q 3 2
K 9 5
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#2 User is offline   redbird97 

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Posted 2017-September-03, 00:51

View PostTharinda97, on 2017-September-02, 21:42, said:

What's the correct opening bid with this hand? (SAYC)
A K 10 5 2
A J
Q 3 2
K 9 5


I open 1S as I have no rebid problems. If partner bids 1NT, I raise to 2NT. That's a nice 17 with a good 5 card suit and a 10. Flip the make your spades hearts and I open 1NT because I am stuck for a good rebid over 1S.
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#3 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-September-03, 00:57

There are two things to consider: (1) will you treat the hand as balanced? and (2) does the hand fall within your no trump range?

There was a time when the consensus was to never open 1NT with a five-card major but times and attitudes have changed and many players (including me) now regularly open 1NT with a five-card major. There are arguments both ways, but you and your partner should agree your partnership approach.

The hand has 17HCP, but that five-card spade suit with three honours makes this hand close to an upgrade - taking the hand outside the NT range for many.

Personally, I play a weak NT - so an easy 1S for me :)
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#4 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2017-September-03, 00:59

Surely if you are going to rebid 2NT after a 1S opening, the companion hand is worth doing so after opening 1H.

I frequently upgrade 17 count hands with a 5-card major, and would do so here.
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#5 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2017-September-03, 01:24

Hi,

discuss with your partner.
Basically this is a question of religious believe, both approaches have there pros / cons.
Since we are in N/B forum, I would suggest, that you either always open 1M or 1NT with 5332 shape
and appropriate strength.
I would also hesitate to recommend different approaches holding hearts / spade, ..., but learn to
think about the rebid after various answers from partner is a good thing to do and hence start early.

The advantage of 1NT is, that you get the shape and strength across in one bit, that your 2nd suit
bid gets strengthend, basically if you bid a new 2nd suit as opener, it will always be 4+, you dont
need to invent a 3 card suit.
The advantage of 1S is, that your 53 fit gets discovered, which will be harder after 1NT (there are
variants of stayman, that allow this but those have also a price tag.)

In short discuss this with your partner.

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: I am also not sure the hand is worth a upgrade, AJ in a side suit is nothing to cheer about.
But as a N/B player I would refrain from going down the upgrade street, since you also need to learn to
use the downgrade street.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#6 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-September-03, 04:17

hi Tharinda. Welcome to the forum :)

I believe that you will find the replies on here will favour both methods of opening. The hand is a 17.75 count on the Kaplan and Rubens hand evaluator, so technically it is a tad strong to open 1NT with if you play a 15-17 no trump. Many expert players hands will open 1NT with an 18 count but only if the distribution is 4333, with any suit as the four carder.

My thinking behind opening 1NT with this hand is simple: You have 17 high card points so it is exceptionally unlikely that partner will have a strong hand. Personally I always like the strong hand to be the closed (declarer) one if playing a contract.

The downside of opening 1 is that partner will bid 1NT and you will raise no-trumps and this hand will become dummy. (The thinking behind this is the defence may find it easier to locate key cards in a weaker hand, as there are fewer, than in a strong hand.)

Also, the 1NT opening immediately tells your partner about the point range and a 1 opening could be anything from 11+

There is another small advantage of opening 1NT too as it is usually makes it slightly more difficult for opponents to come in over this bid than a suit bid. Actually announcing that you have a semi-strong hand by opening 1NT could well put off the opponents from intervening.

The downside of opening 1NT is that if you end up on defence, partner is less likely to lead your suit s. And you could miss out on a 5-3 fit and 4 is a better contract than 3NT..

As I say, there are plus and minus points in both methods, and no-one should criticise you whatever opening you choose.
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#7 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2017-September-03, 04:42

the hand is way too strong for a 15-17NT imo.
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#8 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2017-September-03, 05:48

View Posteagles123, on 2017-September-03, 04:42, said:

the hand is way too strong for a 15-17NT imo.


agree but thebadger comment is true also. with sayc if open 1s and p bids 2c/2d/2h do you rebid 2nt force or 3nt stop?

if 2nt force do you then bid above 3nt saying 18-19 balc.?
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#9 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2017-September-03, 08:26

What to do with 15-17 hands with a 5 card suit varies among good players. So there's no clearly right or wrong answer here.

For newer players, I'd recommend just keeping it simple and opening 1 NT.

The biggest concern in opening 1 NT with a 5 card major is possibly losing a fit in the 5 card suit.

But on the other side of the coin, opening one of a major with any 15-17 5 card major hand has it's problems, too. Responder with any distribution 5-9 hand is forced to bid 1 NT (except over 1 openers when holding 4 or more ). So the "automatic" raise to 2 NT isn't without it's problems opposite distributional "stinkers". Even if the major is raised, there are some issues deciding how high to bid.

The Badger's response brought up a lot of good points also.

Whichever way you decide to go, over a period of time, you discern some group of hands where going the opposite opening route may seem to work better. Then, you can discuss with your partner(s) how best to handle those hands.
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#10 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2017-September-03, 13:28

I have put a poll on BW: http://bridgewinners...ng-bid-and-why/
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#11 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2017-September-03, 14:37

A point or 2 less, 1N, this is a bit good, I'd treat as 18.
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#12 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2017-September-04, 04:53

The opening bid depends upon your methods.We do not like to suppress a good rebiddable major suit and so we open such a hand 1Spade.Playing Puppet I shall open it 1NT.Interchange the spades and a minor and it is an easy 1NT bid.As for me,,since we play Precision,it's an easy 1Club opening.
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#13 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-September-04, 05:51

 eagles123, on 2017-September-03, 13:28, said:

I have put a poll on BW: http://bridgewinners...ng-bid-and-why/


Good move, Rowland. Interesting reading. At least Kit Woolsey agrees with me :)
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#14 User is offline   xbabarx 

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Posted 2017-September-04, 10:27

1/2 seat 1!s..rebid 2nt.. 3/4 seat 1NT
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#15 User is offline   wank 

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Posted 2017-September-05, 11:02

1nt. You could upgrade it but that would be marginal at best. What isn't marginal about this hand is the positionality - it's gagging to be declarer.
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#16 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2017-September-05, 12:14

I think a relevant point for the OP is with over 300 votes on the BW poll, only 15% are bidding 1S because they believe it to be worth a strong NT and would rather bid their spades, compared to 31% that think its worth a strong NT and bid 1N. Of course in that 15% there are some very strong players, but it should give an indication of expert opinion on opening 1N with a five card major.

I have also learned from this, I didn't think of the advantage to this hand declaring, and I just looked at AKTxx in a 17 count and thought 1N was a joke. I would still upgrade but I see the flaws to the hand.
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#17 User is offline   bravejason 

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Posted 2017-September-06, 14:09

I open 1NT. 5332 is balanced and isn't a great distribution. Each suit has a high honor. The spades are nice, but not enough to make the hand worth more than a strong 1NT bid. I don't count the heart J as being worth anything.
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#18 User is offline   drzen_ 

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Posted 2017-September-19, 13:08

View Postredbird97, on 2017-September-03, 00:51, said:

I open 1S as I have no rebid problems. If partner bids 1NT, I raise to 2NT. That's a nice 17 with a good 5 card suit and a 10. Flip the make your spades hearts and I open 1NT because I am stuck for a good rebid over 1S.

Flip the make your spades hearts and I open 1H because if I open 1NT and my partner make me a transfer bid in spades (2H) and then passes we will play in 5-2 fit in spades and probably loose the 5-3 fit in hearts (if). A good rebid over 1S is 2NT.
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#19 User is offline   NickRW 

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Posted 2017-September-20, 05:16

This is a matter of style and partnership agreement. The hand has 17hcp, 6 controls and a good 5 card major. On the other hand the heart jack looks like a weak card.

Consequently, if your style is to hardly ever upgrade, then 1NT is in order. If you upgrade fairly freely, then by all means consider this hand too good for 1NT. IMO, the latter style is best, but even so it is borderline.
"Pass is your friend" - my brother in law - who likes to bid a lot.
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#20 User is offline   Tharinda97 

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Posted 2017-September-29, 20:07

Thank you all! :)
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