BBO Discussion Forums: 5 level decision with two suiter - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

5 level decision with two suiter

#1 User is offline   diana_eva 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 4,854
  • Joined: 2009-July-26
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:bucharest / romania

Posted 2017-August-14, 05:50

Matchpoints:




You decide to pass this beauty, but partner insists. Now what?

#2 User is offline   steve2005 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,148
  • Joined: 2010-April-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hamilton, Canada
  • Interests:Bridge duh!

Posted 2017-August-14, 06:07

P knows best 5
Sarcasm is a state of mind
0

#3 User is offline   gszes 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,654
  • Joined: 2011-February-12

Posted 2017-August-14, 07:37

4NT

It could be right to pass but the presence of TWO 5 card suits coupled with spade shortness surely means a fair portion of p defensive HCP are wasted. It seems right to bid here even w/o the strong expectation of making at the 5 level. The 4NT bid shows 2 places to play and that seems better than just picking the better heart suit as it gives us two possibly great landing spots vs one.
3

#4 User is online   apollo1201 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,078
  • Joined: 2014-June-01

Posted 2017-August-14, 10:01

4NT for me

Probably unexpensive vs their potentially making 4S, I am not sure given my lengths that we might cash several tricks in each side suit - I'd pass a more balanced hand.

And on a good day we make (or they bid 5S)!

Or on a bad day partner leaves me here🤣
0

#5 User is offline   The_Badger 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,125
  • Joined: 2013-January-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England
  • Interests:Bridge, Chess, Film, Literature, Herbal Medicine, Nutrition

Posted 2017-August-14, 10:59

This is more awkward than it actually looks, I feel. Whilst I agree 4NT shows 2 places to play here, it also could be interpreted as "I'm not interested in the suit, after both your doubles, pick one of the minors"

That's ok if partner bids 5 after 4NT because you now correct to 5, but if he bids 5 you're going to pass and you may miss out on a better fit if he is 1-5-3-4

If partner was minor suit-oriented (unlikely but possible) then bidding 4NT as opposed to doubling again would have been his bid, so I am more inclined to trust partner as Steve2005 says and bid 5 myself, although there is an additional problem with that as the big hand becomes dummy.

Leaving 4X in is not an option, this century or the next.
0

#6 User is offline   mikeh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,836
  • Joined: 2005-June-15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada
  • Interests:Bridge, golf, wine (red), cooking, reading eclectically but insatiably, travelling, making bad posts.

Posted 2017-August-14, 17:23

4N is clear: it is standard for this to mean 'two places to play'.

For those opting for 5, let me ask you why you fear that he may be 1=5=3=4? That is just about the only shape on which hearts will play better than clubs and we can't reach hearts after 4N..

And while you are thinking about that, let me ask you how your partner was supposed to bid with a hand such as xx AKx KQxx AKxx? Anybody here think he misbid to double 1 and then 4?

While 5 isn't necessarily a disaster opposite that sort of shape, 5 rates to be a lot safer, and there are weaker hands for him than that 19 count, where the big fit will be very important.

This isn't about perfection: auctions like this are about survival, and we should aim to maximize finding a good fit rather than fantasizing about the perfect fit.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
3

#7 User is offline   ahydra 

  • AQT92 AQ --- QJ6532
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,840
  • Joined: 2009-September-09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wellington, NZ

Posted 2017-August-14, 18:08

4NT seems clear, pull 5D to 5H.

ahydra
0

#8 User is offline   msjennifer 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,366
  • Joined: 2013-August-03
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Variable private
  • Interests:Cricket,Photography,Paediatrics and Community Medicine.

Posted 2017-August-14, 23:16

It is match points and so 5H is what I suggest.At IMP I might oonsider 4NT.
0

#9 User is offline   Kapi Blas 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 28
  • Joined: 2017-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Wrocław, Poland
  • Interests:Bridge, basketball and mathematics.

Posted 2017-August-15, 01:14

4NT as any 2 suiter. If partner bids 5 you pass, if 5 you bid 5.
0

#10 User is offline   The_Badger 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,125
  • Joined: 2013-January-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England
  • Interests:Bridge, Chess, Film, Literature, Herbal Medicine, Nutrition

Posted 2017-August-15, 04:39

View Postmikeh, on 2017-August-14, 17:23, said:

4N is clear: it is standard for this to mean 'two places to play'
This isn't about perfection: auctions like this are about survival, and we should aim to maximize finding a good fit rather than fantasizing about the perfect fit.


I concede you're right, Mike, +1, it's about survival. If you want to see partner's hand it's posted on another part of the forum:-

http://www.bridgebas...with-opps-suit/

Both hands just prove how tough a game bridge is.
0

#11 User is offline   ramace 

  • Pip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 2
  • Joined: 2016-June-06

Posted 2017-August-15, 05:44

Hi,

Better to pass as both are vuls.

If vuls vs nonvuls:

1.One can use 4nt as both minors 5-5.

1s-*-4s-4nt

5c-p-p-p.

or

1s-*-4s-4nt
5c-p-5d-p
5h-p-p-p.

2.With heart and minor 5-5:

1s-*-4s-5h.
(in both case opps bid not counted).
0

#12 User is offline   diana_eva 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Admin
  • Posts: 4,854
  • Joined: 2009-July-26
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:bucharest / romania

Posted 2017-August-15, 05:48

View PostThe_Badger, on 2017-August-15, 04:39, said:

I concede you're right, Mike, +1, it's about survival. If you want to see partner's hand it's posted on another part of the forum:-

http://www.bridgebas...with-opps-suit/

Both hands just prove how tough a game bridge is.


Now you spoiled it :) I'm gonna start counting the arguments for pass after your post ;)

#13 User is offline   maartenxq 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 158
  • Joined: 2013-January-21

Posted 2017-August-15, 06:08

View PostThe_Badger, on 2017-August-14, 10:59, said:


If partner was minor suit-oriented (unlikely but possible) then bidding 4NT as opposed to doubling again would have been his bid, so I am more inclined to trust partner as Steve2005 says and bid 5 myself, although there is an additional problem with that as the big hand becomes dummy.


In my view ps 2cd dbl is penalty orientated. If he wants t/o he can bid 4 nt himself. So probably 5 is the best option as p will not be 1435.
0

#14 User is offline   Caitlynne 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 238
  • Joined: 2015-October-09

Posted 2017-August-15, 13:59

5H is clear cut. Anything else is an egregious error and abuse of partnership.

Partner has twice suggested spade shortness and support for the remaining three suits. That means that the opponents have at least 10 spades between them, if not 11 or more. We surely have at least a 9 card fit in either clubs or hearts - and probably both! So we can expect at least 20 total trumps and the Law of Total Tricks makes it mandatory to bid.

If that weren't enough to convince you, partner has twice asked you to bid your longest suit, hoping/expecting a good fit based on distribution. Thus, any takeout at this high level is only unclear when you are balanced (and without length outside of spades). Here, however, you are quite distributional, so to fail to cooperate with partner and takeout to a long suit is unthinkable.

5C is okay at IMPs, but 5H is clearly preferable to 5C at matchpoints. Your side may be cold for game and, if it is, the available major suit game contract will outscore the minor suit game.
0

#15 User is offline   The_Badger 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,125
  • Joined: 2013-January-25
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:England
  • Interests:Bridge, Chess, Film, Literature, Herbal Medicine, Nutrition

Posted 2017-August-15, 23:53

View Postdiana_eva, on 2017-August-15, 05:48, said:

Now you spoiled it :) I'm gonna start counting the arguments for pass after your post ;)


Lol. I even managed to contradict and trip myself up in my own comments on the two posts, that essentially show how very difficult it actually is countering a direct 4 pre-emptive raise.

And sincere apologies for spoiling it, but at least I should get credit for working out that the two separate posts were connected :)
0

#16 User is offline   PhilG007 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 973
  • Joined: 2013-February-24
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Dundee Scotland United Kingdom
  • Interests:Occasional chess player. Dominoes

Posted 2017-August-16, 00:51

View Postdiana_eva, on 2017-August-14, 05:50, said:

Matchpoints:




You decide to pass this beauty, but partner insists. Now what?

North is the type of player that I abhor. He's only concerned with his own hand,blithely ignoring the
fact he has a partner sitting opposite who,very likely,is holding a 'busted flush' People like North are as big a pest at
the bridge table as the greenfly are in the garden(!) I would pass just to "teach partner a lesson "
"It is not enough to be a good player, you must also play well"
- Dr Tarrasch(1862-1934)German Chess Grandmaster

Bridge is a game where you have two opponents...and often three(!)


"Any palooka can take tricks with Aces and Kings; the true expert shows his prowess
by how he handles the two's and three's" - Mollo's Hideous Hog
0

#17 User is offline   mcphee 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,512
  • Joined: 2003-February-16

Posted 2017-August-16, 03:00

While it is possible you can beat 4S to me there is little doubt I have offense and not defense. As its pairs perhaps H is a reasonable choice, however 4NT is what I have. I do not care if its pairs, I prefer to scramble into my best fit. If you got it wrong, too bad, its just one board.
1

#18 User is offline   miamijd 

  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 737
  • Joined: 2015-November-14

Posted 2017-August-16, 20:39

View PostPhilG007, on 2017-August-16, 00:51, said:

North is the type of player that I abhor. He's only concerned with his own hand,blithely ignoring the
fact he has a partner sitting opposite who,very likely,is holding a 'busted flush' People like North are as big a pest at
the bridge table as the greenfly are in the garden(!) I would pass just to "teach partner a lesson "


Really? And suppose North has a hand like:

Ax
AKxx
Axxx
AKx

You make 6 hearts six days to Sunday. As it happened, North had a hand that's really tough:

AKTx
Kxx
AQx
Axx

I have no clue what to do with that hand over 4S (I think I would X); whatever I do would end up wrong!

Cheers,
Mike
1

#19 User is offline   rmnka447 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,366
  • Joined: 2012-March-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois
  • Interests:Bridge, Golf, Soccer

Posted 2017-August-20, 10:58

4 NT, then pull 5 to 5 if necessary.

I appreciate those who are worried about 5 being a superior MP result. But at the 5 level, it's more about finding a decent place to play than necessarily the best place to play. By bidding 4 NT, you not only increase your options of doing that, but also give partner some useful information about the nature of your hand.
0

Page 1 of 1
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users