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Semi-forcing NT vs Forcing NT

Poll: Semi-forcing NT vs Forcing NT (44 member(s) have cast votes)

What 1NT response to 1M do you prefer?

  1. Forcing (10 votes [22.73%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 22.73%

  2. Semi-Forcing (34 votes [77.27%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 77.27%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 User is offline   Kapi Blas 

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Posted 2017-August-12, 08:12

Hi guys!

I would really love to hear your opinions about this stuff. What are the advantages and disadvantages of both methods and which of these 2 is superior? Since i began to play bridge 2 years ago I always played Semi-forcing NT. Now I'm thinking of switching it to Forcing just as i changed my 1 opening a little bit.
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#2 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2017-August-12, 09:06

well I answered semi forcing but the correct answer is not sure, since I've never played forcing NT
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#3 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2017-August-12, 09:51

I voted SF, but I prefer NF if I'm allowed to play the 2 response as "NAT or Drury" or similar.

Well, maybe I prefer NF even with the 3c limit raise in 1N. I often pass GiB's forcing 1N for fear that I will end up in 2N or 3M otherwise. :)
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#4 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2017-August-12, 10:34

You should also have non-forcing as option.
The method you would use depends on the rest of your system.
Sarcasm is a state of mind
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#5 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2017-August-12, 11:09

The advantage of the forcing NT bid is, that responder has two ways
to reach a bid above 1 NT, and is sure, that he will reach it.
This usually is done to differentiate raises of openers major, e.g.
constructive / garbage raises to 2M, a 3M limit raise with 3 / 4 card
support, ..., including certain balanced hands to free up the 2NT /
3NT (less common).
The disadvantage of a forcing NT is, you cant play 1NT, a common MP
convern. Also if you include to many hand type in the forcing NT response
it may causes trouble, if the auction gets competitive.

The advantage of the semiforcing NT bid is, that you can play 1 NT, the
disadvantage is, the amount of hand types, that can be included in the
hands that go through 1NT is limited (10-12 bal., limit raise with 3 cards).
You loose the garbage raises, i.e. you reduce frequency, but their risk
that an intervention backfires increases.
There is also the risk of play 1NT(+1), when you could make 3M, but sometimes
you cant make 3M, so this basically neutral.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#6 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2017-August-12, 13:13

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2017-August-12, 11:09, said:

You loose the garbage raises

My NF 1N response includes a garbage 3c raise, so I risk playing 1N instead of 2M on a combined 14-18 count. Is that so bad?
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#7 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-August-12, 15:27

I haven't voted, and please correct me if I am wrong, but I have a feeling that a forcing 1NT only appeared as a result of the Precision system, whereas before 2/1 became the main American system, Standard American had a similar non-forcing 1NT (balanced) response as Acol.

We are talking about four different systems here, but the main difference is that the Precision system had limited 5M openings.

With 2/1 it all depends on other conventions and other stuff (e.g. constructive raises, etc.) that you build round it I feel.

Personally, and this is just my honest view, I've never been a ardent fan of the 2/1 forcing 1NT response as a glove that has to fit many 6-11 point hands that can't bid otherwise. This is why I was interested in other commentators' views on an earlier thread.

http://www.bridgebas...__1#entry927986

There are some excellent comments here too.
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#8 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2017-August-12, 16:19

Forcing nt was part of Roth-Stone which preceded Precision by a couple decades.
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#9 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2017-August-12, 16:30

If you open lite I would strongly recommend you play semiforcing nt...You are more likely to want to pass 1nt to show your junky bal or semi bal hand.
Keep in mind you will still rebid with 2 decent suits or more than a dead minimum. In any event you will be surprised how seldom passing 1nt comes up in practice. Please keep in mind playing this style you are pushing many hand types through 1nt.

OTOH if you open pretty sound you will never want to pass so forcing 1nt makes more sense.
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#10 User is offline   CSGibson 

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Posted 2017-August-12, 17:34

I strongly prefer forcing NT in context of a 2/1 system. Just because opener is balanced, it doesn't mean that 1N should be played on all contracts where responder has to bid it, this allows responder to actually play in his long suit opposite a balanced hand.
Chris Gibson
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#11 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2017-August-12, 17:46

View PostCSGibson, on 2017-August-12, 17:34, said:

I strongly prefer forcing NT in context of a 2/1 system. Just because opener is balanced, it doesn't mean that 1N should be played on all contracts where responder has to bid it, this allows responder to actually play in his long suit opposite a balanced hand.


I don't play a forcing NT, but I think it works quite well with a weak NT. opener does not have to find another bid when holding a weak NT; he is already there.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#12 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2017-August-12, 18:14

I think posters don't understand semiforcing nt.

for starters you seldom pass, you do not repeat do not pass with say a typical 12-14 weak nt hand.


IN practice you only pass with a really crappy, junky hand. Please note this means you open really crappy , junky hands.
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#13 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2017-August-12, 18:18

View PostStephen Tu, on 2017-August-12, 16:19, said:

Forcing nt was part of Roth-Stone which preceded Precision by a couple decades.


Thanks Stephen. Having looked on Bridgeguys, it seems 2/1 is based on Roth-Stone except HCP opening bids are now lower. Wasn't familiar with Roth-Stone mechanics where their 2 over 1 bid is GF. They do say you learn something every day.
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#14 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2017-August-12, 18:29

View PostThe_Badger, on 2017-August-12, 18:18, said:

Thanks Stephen. Having looked on Bridgeguys, it seems 2/1 is based on Roth-Stone except HCP opening bids are now lower. Wasn't familiar with Roth-Stone mechanics where their 2 over 1 bid is GF. They do say you learn something every day.


hmmm 2/1 is not game force in roth stone....

think about that

opener is known to be sound, old fashion sound and yet your 2/1 is not gf

as a result fewer hand types go dthrough forcing nt.
------------


2/1 is based on what used to be called Walsh....butof course borrows from many others.
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#15 User is offline   awm 

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Posted 2017-August-13, 00:28

Semi-forcing is better when responder has an invite (stop lower when opener passes, or evaluate better when opener bids 2m since it's four cards or extras). Forcing is better when responder has a weak unbalanced hand and opener would pass 1nt.

The latter situation is a lot rarer, especially since opponents often bid in such situations. So I prefer semi-forcing.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
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#16 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2017-August-13, 03:18

View Postnullve, on 2017-August-12, 13:13, said:

My NF 1N response includes a garbage 3c raise, so I risk playing 1N instead of 2M on a combined 14-18 count. Is that so bad?

At least with MP scoring, I would say this is avg-. You risk often going for 150, when they have nothing, this
assumes, that you are green, going for -200, when you are red is also nothing to cheer about.
That being said, you also have gains, so take your pick, see what works for you in the enviroment you play.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#17 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2017-August-13, 03:25

View Postmike777, on 2017-August-12, 18:14, said:

I think posters don't understand semiforcing nt.


May well be true, since I dont like the term semiforcing.
I used to say, this is the same as saying being semi / half pregnant, ... but semi / half pregnant
exist, unfortunately I did not yet find a meaningful replacement for pregnant.
For me semiforcing means, that you include some inv. hand, that are usually not part of a nonforcing NT,
but that you are allowed, even expected to pass the 1NT response with a weak NT hand.
In short, before we discuss forcing / semiforcing / nonforcing, we need to clarify, what we mean by it.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#18 User is offline   42xxbfxx42 

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Posted 2017-August-13, 04:38

I use 1M - 1N - 2x - and a jump raise to show 13+ points 3 card raise, with a desire to play 3N ... so 1N must be FORCING

View PostKapi Blas, on 2017-August-12, 08:12, said:

Hi guys!

I would really love to hear your opinions about this stuff. What are the advantages and disadvantages of both methods and which of these 2 is superior? Since i began to play bridge 2 years ago I always played Semi-forcing NT. Now I'm thinking of switching it to Forcing just as i changed my 1 opening a little bit.

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#19 User is offline   psyck 

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Posted 2017-August-13, 05:16

View Poststeve2005, on 2017-August-12, 10:34, said:

You should also have non-forcing as option.
The method you would use depends on the rest of your system.

Semi-Forcing is the term commonly employed for a non forcing NT response, both are the same - meaning opener is not forced to response on min balanced hands.
Cheers, Krishna.
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#20 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2017-August-13, 06:14

View PostP_Marlowe, on 2017-August-12, 11:09, said:

The disadvantage of a forcing NT is, you cant play 1NT, a common MP
concern.

Combine it with Kaplan inversion, and you bring back playing in 1NT over hearts, and played the right way round, too.

I think the advantages or having double the precision of major raises outweighs disadvantages. For me 1M 2M is 7-10 hcp if 3-card, which makes game decisions easy. Without forcing NT things are too vague. Also included in 1NT are balanced hands up to 15 hcp (16+ included in the 2 response), which enables fit finding and discovery of better resting places. When 2 then 2NT shows 16+, there is better distinction between game and slam.
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